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On Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception

Not all [modern] Orthodox theologians deny [the Immaculate Conception], though some do very explicitly deny it, thereby illustrating the different development which took place in the West and left the East comparatively unaffected. The development of an explicit doctrine of the Immaculate Conception originated in the Pelagian denial of original sin, which denial forced Latin theology to consider the nature of original sin, and hence to formulate more explicitly some of the relations between nature and grace in a way which Orthodox theology was not forced to do.

The sinlessness of the Theotokos, her closeness to her Son, her absolute accord all through her life with all the designs of her Son, her singular place in the economy of salvation – all this was and is common to Greeks and Latins alike. Common, too, was the belief that Mary was redeemed by her Son and redeemed in a most singular way. Mary as the second Eve was not a concept that arose in the West, but in the East - at least as far as we know; Mary as the type of the Church is to be found equally among Greek theologians and among Latin, and the Orthodox hold strongly that the Church is without sin, however much sin there may be in the members of the Church.

But the Latins, having had to deal with Pelagius’ denial of any original sin at all, had to analyze the notion of original sin more explicitly than the Orthodox; and thus the Latins came to see more universally than the Greeks that Mary’s singular privileges, as revealed in the Scriptures and the Church [Tradition], carried the implication of total exemption from the common sinful inheritance of the rest of men. The Orthodox, of course, hold strongly to the doctrine of original sin and to the privileges of the Mother of God; but they did not so early or so clearly connect the two.

I conjecture that those Orthodox who deny the Immaculate Conception may be under the impression that exemption from sin implies either that Mary did not need redemption, or else that exemption from sin carried with it exemption from the natura phthora, corruption in the wide sense, which is the natural lot of all men save only the God-man.

Professor Jean Meyendorff thinks that the Latin doctrine of original sin involves some responsibility, meriting a punishment, on the part of all men, and that exemption from this responsibility involves exemption from all “corruption” and hence exemption from death. The Orthodox doctrine, he says, of original sin involves a certain subjection, or even servitude, to the devil, who exerts a usurped, unjust, and deadly tyranny. Hence all men “inherit corruption and death and all commit sin.” But Mary, being born by natural generation of Joachim and Anne, was mortal, and her corporal glorification came only after her death. Hence he objects to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

But the Catholic doctrine of original sin does not involve any responsibility for the actual sin of Adam. Sin is spiritual disorder. If it is personal sin, then the person is responsible for the disorder; but if it is original sin, then the originator of the race, and not the individual person, is responsible for the disorder. The spiritual disorder, which is signified by original sin, involves a privation of that original holiness and rightness in which God created man; it involves too, in the normal way, that subjection to the evil one of which Professor Meyendorff speaks; and it involves bodily corruption and death.

Christ was exempt from all sin, and from all spiritual subjection to the evil one; but he was not exempt from death, for he died, and by his death we live. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the acts of Joachim and Anne; it only means that God exempted the future Mother of his Son from the spiritual disorder which leads all ordinary men to actual sin. Mary was born mortal, a true child of our race in that her natural lot was death. She was the second Eve, and it was precisely her immaculateness which, by God’s unmerited, spontaneous gift, prepared her for the fiat through which God sent his Son to be the second Adam, head of the new race, born of a sinless Mother.

On the subject of the Mother of God, I think Latins and Orthodox have the same mind, though perhaps language may sometimes be misleading.

– Bernard Leeming, SJ.

From “Orthodox-Catholic Relations” in Rediscovering Eastern Christendom, E.J.B. Frye and A.H. Armstrong (Darton, Longman and Todd, 1963), pp. 42-43.

131 Responses to “On Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception”

  1. on July 20, 2008 at 11:38 pm Fr Paul

    Quite simply the best brief comment I have read on the “difference” between Catholics and Orthodox on the sinlessness of the Mother of God. Thank you Eirenikon.

    Leeming may, however, be a bit over-confident on the supposed superiority of the Latin (Augustinian) view of Original Sin. I myself need to do more thionking and reading on the “reatus culpae” (i.e. “original guilt) and it’s dogmatic status. If you don’t believe in “original guilt”, - and I’m not SURE that you have to as a Catholic - then the theological expression of the DEFINITION of the Immaculate Conception becomes not false, but simply meaningless. This does not mean that the dogma itself is either false or meaningless. Distinguishing between the content of a dogma and its (historically determined) theological expression is of the essence of all hermeneutic of dogmatic formulae.

    I would be interested in the comments of Orthodox readers (preferably not from those with side-lines in Nazi flying saucers). I was bemused and troubled some time ago to read Olivier Clément (I’ve lost the exact refrence, alas) saying that Mary was only sanctified at the Annunciation. This is not the Patristic consensus (East and West) as I have understood it. But it’s late, and I don’t have my library to hand, so I can’t substantiate what I write. Who can help?


  2. on July 21, 2008 at 12:18 am diane

    Viva the Immaculata!`


  3. on July 21, 2008 at 12:22 am Eirenikon Editor

    Father Paul,

    It’s been a little while since I last checked it, but I recall that Casimir Kucharek’s The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St John Chrysostom (Allendale, NJ: Alleluia Press, 1971) has some good historical information on Eastern views of the Immaculate Conception. Tomorrow I’ll take a little trip to the library and post an excerpt on the blog.


  4. on July 21, 2008 at 4:20 am Pontificator

    The question “What is the core doctrine that the 19th century definition is seeking to express?” is quite interesting and important, I think. I agree with Fr Paul that Catholic dogma does not require one to assert “original guilt,” at least as this is popularly understood, by both Catholics and non-Catholics alike. One notes that both the Catechism and JPII go to great lengths to distance the dogma from the notion that mankind is punished because God holds us culpable for Adam’s sin (see my series on original sin).

    Does the IC dogma represent an irreconcilable difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Must it represent an irreconcilable difference? Is Orthodoxy dogmatically committed to the proposition that the Virgin Mary was devoid of the Holy Spirit at her conception and thus a child of wrath and alienated from God?

    As Lemming notes, Catholicism and Orthodoxy both agree that the Theotokos was not protected from corruption and death. In this sense she shares in the sinful lot of man. Must Orthodoxy go the further step and insist that she committed personal sin?

    Can Orthodoxy accept the proposition that from the beginning of her conception, the Thetokos was was possessed by the Spirit that she was in the process of theosis? And would such a position satisfy the Catholic dogma?


  5. on July 21, 2008 at 4:36 am Ad Orientem

    To be honest, I have always seen the IC as a secondary (though not unimportant) point of difference between Rome and Orthodoxy. If the really serious issues (Grace & Ecclesiology, esp. with respect to the Papacy) can be resolved, this one will fall into place in due course.

    ICXC
    John


  6. on July 21, 2008 at 12:09 pm diane

    James Likoudis observes that, in 19th-century Russia, there were entire confraternities devoted to defending the doctrine of the IC to the death. Clearly, therefore, IMHO, there is nothing to prevent Orthodox from accepting the IC…and, in fact, from what I hear, some do.

    I understand, also, that the hardening of the Orthodox position contra the IC has been grounded more in polemics than in historical Orthodox doctrine. After all, it is arguably the Patristic East, more than the West, that developed the doctrine of the all-holiness of the Theotokos in the first place. (Its basis is in the Depositum Fidei, of course, and notably in Scripture.)

    Mr. Likoudis maintains that it was the formal dogmatic definition of the IC in 1854 that prompted the polemical hardening of EO resistance to the IC. What has been hardened can presumably be softened. All the concessions, IOW, need not come from the Catholic side.

    I am not sure what John means by “falling into place.” As the IC happens to be the truth, it is not negotiable. I do not presume to understand all the intricacies of the debate over the precise nature of Original Sin. All I know is that, from the first instant of her conception, by a singular Grace of God, the Theotokos was free from it.

    Diane

    P.S. “Que soy ero l’Immaculada Concepciou.” — Our Lady to Saint Bernadette. Heaven confirmed it; I believe it; over and out. John, I will pray very much for your return to the Catholic fold.

    P.P.S. And would such a position satisfy the Catholic dogma? Beats me! (Not that I’m in any position to be able to answer such a question, anyway!) More to the point, though, I’m not sure I understand exactly what your stated position is, Father Kimel. Isn’t “theosis” a progressive thing? And wasn’t Our Lady free from Original Sin (however we understand it!) in an absolute sense, from the moment of her conception?


  7. on July 21, 2008 at 12:11 pm Fr M Kirby

    This philo-Orthodox presentation of the doctrine is the kind of thing I was trying to do here from an Anglican Catholic perspective:

    http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2005/12/immaculate-conception-of-our-lady.html

    Similarly, I defended the doctrine, again working from a less Augustinian perspective, here in comments:

    http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2008/07/immaculate-conception-of-our-lady.html

    However, I have used the word corruption to mean the moral corruption often called concupiscence, which is not how it is used in this post.

    Could someone please explain to me why it is constantly asserted that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on the Augustinian doctrine of “Original Guilt” when the latter term is not in the official definition? The word “stain” is used, but what is to prevent us taking that in an ontological rather than legal sense? And given that the real Eastern consensual position is that Mary committed no actual sin at all (which is why she is uniquely called immaculate and all-holy), how could it be inconsistent with the Eastern tradition to found that unique mode of life on a unique ontological basis, consonant both with the East’s very ontic view of salvation and the ecumenically accepted need for grace as the basis of all human righteousness?


  8. on July 21, 2008 at 2:05 pm Photios Jones

    “Mary was born mortal, a true child of our race in that her natural lot was death.”

    How can Mary’s natural lot be “death” if she was born immaculate and exempt from original sin?

    “Can Orthodoxy accept the proposition that from the beginning of her conception, the Thetokos was was possessed by the Spirit that she was in the process of theosis?”

    No. Because the process of theosis involves doing something. Recapitulation. At the moment of one’s conception, you haven’t done anything. There is no formation of habit.

    Secondly, the divine subsists in us naturally as St. Maximus says, which makes the IC superflous in a sense. What makes the divine active or energetic is when we recapitulate the works of Christ. Starting with our baptism or with an active faith in adults.


  9. on July 21, 2008 at 3:23 pm diane

    How can Mary’s natural lot be “death” if she was born immaculate and exempt from original sin?

    By a singular Grace of God. :-)

    As those apophatic nuns used to tell us, “It’s a mystery.”

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

    Diane


  10. on July 21, 2008 at 4:00 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    Did you read what the question stated? By your answer, it was by a singular act of grace, by God, that Mary has her ‘natural’ lot of Death. This is not what the Roman Catholic view is or you are just not reading the question. I’ll assume the latter since I think you do understand what Rome teaches on this. The Roman Catholic view is that she was exempt from the “stain” of original sin by a singular act of grace. My question deals with the *logical* outcome, continuity, and soundness of the view. If she is exempt from the stain, what is the *stain* of original sin? If it’s concupiscense, what is concupiscence rooted in? And how can this *corruption* be divorced from the corruption that is *death* since that is the very root of the instability for Adam and Eve’s subsequent posterity?

    Notice that my question doesn’t deal with Russia or what some Orthodox might have held to, but rather if it is theologically sound in the first place. As a side note, those historical contingencies beg the question for me, because I believe Russia in the 19th century was captive to Western categories, sophiology, and other non-Orthodox world views.

    Photios


  11. on July 21, 2008 at 6:11 pm Ad Orientem

    Diane,
    Thank you for your prayers. I am already a member of The Orthodox Catholic Church.

    Yours in ICXC
    John


  12. on July 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm Edward De Vita

    “No. Because the process of theosis involves doing something. Recapitulation. At the moment of one’s conception, you haven’t done anything. There is no formation of habit.”

    Photios,
    Please explain a bit further. It doesn’t seem to me that one has “done anything” at the moment of one’s baptism either, if that occurs at infancy. So where is the formation of habit there?

    “If she is exempt from the stain, what is the *stain* of original sin? If it’s concupiscense, what is concupiscence rooted in? And how can this *corruption* be divorced from the corruption that is *death* since that is the very root of the instability for Adam and Eve’s subsequent posterity?”

    The so-called “stain” of original sin is the lack of sanctifying grace, i.e., of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The IC doctrine simply states that the Holy Mother of God was filled with this grace from the moment of her conception, much as a newborn child is filled with grace at the moment of baptism. The doctrine does not deny that she had to cooperate with grace in order to increase in holiness and favour with God.
    None of this implies in any way that she did not inherit the corruption of death. anymore than the sinlessness of our Lord from his very conception negated the corruption of his human nature.
    Just as the sacrament of holy baptism gives us divine grace without immediately destroying our mortality, why should the reception of divine grace at the very moment of conception be any different?

    Ed


  13. on July 21, 2008 at 6:21 pm diane

    Just as the sacrament of holy baptism gives us divine grace without immediately destroying our mortality, why should the reception of divine grace at the very moment of conception be any different?

    Eggzackly.


  14. on July 21, 2008 at 6:23 pm diane

    John / Ad Orientem: I think you know what I meant. ;)


  15. on July 21, 2008 at 6:23 pm Eirenikon Editor

    Dear all – I would turn your attention to comment #7 by Father Kirby, which I just rescued from the spam filter.


  16. on July 21, 2008 at 6:25 pm Eirenikon Editor

    OK, folks, can’t we all pray for each other’s conversions privately? :-)


  17. on July 21, 2008 at 6:29 pm Ad Orientem

    Photios,
    I have noticed a tendency of late among those desiring some Orthodox confirmation for whatever position they are espousing to quote (often selectively) the opinions of certain Orthodox personages, sometimes of high dignity, and ignore the overwhelming disagreement from the rest of the Orthodox world. This has been seen in a number of threads recently. In any case I think the issue of the IC remains subordinate to the more important issues of Grace and Ecclesiology, as I noted in my above comment.

    Your observations are of course (as usual) right on target.

    How could Mary have died if she was preserved from original sin? Fr. Leeming’s article does not provide an answer which would satisfy the vast majority of the world’s Orthodox including me. But rather more importantly he fails to address the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death. Since the Dormition of the Theotokos is commemorated in one of the Great Feasts of the Church (it was once so in the West too) this would seem to suggest a serious inconsistency of belief which needs to be addressed as a starting point.

    Given the more or less universal acceptance of the Dormition of the Mother of God in Orthodoxy, its prominent place in or liturgics, and its acceptance by the Fathers I think one could fairly say this is accepted as being a nonnegotiable article of faith for us. Thus the question is; does the Roman Catholic Church teach that the Virgin Mary died a natural death? Inquiring minds want to know.

    ICXC
    John


  18. on July 21, 2008 at 6:36 pm Eirenikon Editor

    John,

    How do you know that “the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death”? Are you referring to scientific data, or to a personal impression based on anecdotal evidence?

    My impression (certainly not scientific) up until now has been that most Catholic theologians believe that Our Lady died a natural death. Leeming, for example, takes this for granted and doesn’t even mention the possibility that she did not die before being assumed into heaven.

    The Roman Catholic Church, of course, does not bind the faithful to believe either way.


  19. on July 21, 2008 at 7:02 pm Ad Orientem

    Eirenikon,
    You make a very good point in drawing a distinction which I failed to note. Catholic theologians (at least the more orthodox ones) are often at odds with the those in the pews. An excellent example of this is the rather convoluted position which Rome has adopted in an effort to make the filioque Orthodox. But of course these fine theological distinctions from people like Mike Liccione (whom I hold in very high regard) generally don’t make it down to the ordinary folks at the 11AM Mass at St. Somebody’s. (Which is one of my main hang ups with the filioque. No matter how the theologians parse its meaning the fact is that ordinary churchgoers read “and from the Son…” and naturally assume a double procession. Lex Orandi Lex Credendi and all that. But I digress.)

    Your point is a good one because it raises two questions which are interconnected. What does Rome teach? And what do the faithful believe?

    You correctly (I think) observe that Rome has left this matter open. Thus in the eyes of the Holy See it is theologuman. I can live with that as a starting point But has the Catholic sensus fidei given a powerful indicator of the direction of opinion? My observations are mainly anecdotal but I haven’t met many lay Catholics (or even clergy) who hold to the Orthodox position on this. If there are others who have had a different experience I would be very interested to hear from them. I would also love to see a poll on this subject among the Catholic laity.

    ICXC
    John


  20. on July 21, 2008 at 7:05 pm diane

    How do you know that “the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death”?

    I wondered the same thing. This seems to be a common Orthodox claim; leastwise this is not the first time I’ve encountered it. I was told the same thing some time ago on an Orthodox list. I responded, “No we don’t.” To which I was told: “Yes, you do.” Apparently our Orthodox brethren know better what Catholics believe than we Catholics do. ;)

    For the record: Every Catholic I know and have ever known has assumed that the Theotokos did indeed die a natural death. But hey, what do I know? I’ve only been a Catholic for the better part of 57 years. ;)

    Diane

    P.S. Apologies for publicly praying for John. :D Technically my intention was for his reversion, not conversion, because (I believe, if I’m not mistaken) he used to be Catholic. (As in united with the pope.)


  21. on July 21, 2008 at 7:06 pm Photios Jones

    “Please explain a bit further. It doesn’t seem to me that one has “done anything” at the moment of one’s baptism either, if that occurs at infancy. So where is the formation of habit there?”

    Ed,
    I would argue that this is not a proper analogue, because 1) one could take Luther’s view that infants have a natural desire for baptism. In other words, the desire of God is rooted in the nature (per Maximus), in which infants have an ineffable manner of expressing. Or 2) Augustine’s view that the Church is the human agency that baptism is performed. Both represent a synergistic process in which the human will is active. Theosis is recapitulational. This the IC undermines.

    Though the fact I’m using a couple of predestinarians here as examples shouldn’t be alarming since the idea can be found in Sts. Gregory Palamas and Maximos: there is a two fold grace that is given in baptism to infants that is of dynamis (potent), but a person must confirm themselves in it to achieve and have theosis, active (energeia). In any manner, the view I take is that theosis must be synergistic, not only the beginning but the end as well. The IC on the other hand is a clear example of Monergism. Mary then becomes the new examplar of the doctrine of predestination.

    Even worse by my lights, if God can predestinate Mary to an immaculate conception, then there’s not reason not to do this to everybody else as well based on the future “merits of Christ.” That sure would save us alot of trouble, least being the problem of evil. I’m not dislodged from my position due to prediletion either, that just moves us to limited atonement and Calvinism.

    “The so-called “stain” of original sin is the lack of sanctifying grace, i.e., of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The IC doctrine simply states that the Holy Mother of God was filled with this grace from the moment of her conception, much as a newborn child is filled with grace at the moment of baptism.”

    Yes I got that part, though some would argue it is concupiscence, but the majority would argue it is the absence of “sanctifying grace.” Anyways, this can’t be a good analogue for comparison since 1) RC theologians don’t think that Mary inherited concupiscence and 2) Concupiscence remains in the baptized per RC sacramental theology.

    This leaves you with an arbitrary notion of what corruptions you allow Mary to inherit and one’s that you do not as a result of the fall. Furthermore, it places Mary in a “middle” way position between the humanity before the fall and after the fall. Pre-Fallen Adam does not have instability, Mary has some due to death, and the post-lapsarian humanity has the full consequences. Adam was not destined to die and had no concipiscence of the flesh, Mary was destined to die but had no propensity to sin, and the rest of Adam’s descendants have both.

    “None of this implies in any way that she did not inherit the corruption of death.”

    No Ed, the argument is that she ought to *not inherit* it if she has the integral unity of grace and nature without first falling into the “stain.” There’s no logical basis to assert that she would inherit death whatsoever, other than scientific observation of the fallen world, but I take that more to mean that the doctrine is false and illogical.

    Photios


  22. on July 21, 2008 at 7:06 pm diane

    For the record, John: Every Catholic I have ever known in the pews has assumed that the Theotokos died a natural death.

    Just sayin’. ;)

    Diane


  23. on July 21, 2008 at 7:10 pm diane

    There’s no logical basis to assert that she would inherit death whatsoever….

    How non-apophatic of you. ;) I thought it was the Calvinists who were so big on airtight logic. I was always told that you Orthodox were much keener on Mystery. In fact, I was led to believe y’all had cornered the market on it.

    Very interesting. :D

    Diane


  24. on July 21, 2008 at 7:23 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    I’m using the rhetoric of philosophy to dislodge the position, because I believe the doctrine has its *conceptual roots* in philosophy. Perhaps you need to re-read the very first section of the Summa Theologiae of Thomas Aquinas that “sacred doctrine” is a *science.* This is somewhat the basis of when philosophy changes, your theology has to “grow” with it or dialogue with it: the re-discovery of Aristotle in the 13th century or modern philosophy in the 20th century (Vatican II).

    Orthodox theology on the other hand is not based on philosophy nor is the conceptual content of philosophy theology’s hand-maiden.

    Photios


  25. on July 21, 2008 at 8:18 pm Fr Paul

    The idea that the Mother of God did not die is, to my knowledge, taught by no significant Catholic theologian today or in living memory, nor have I ever heard it maintained by an ordinary Catholic “in the pew”. I do not see how her mortality is any more incompatible with her being deified from conception than the fact of Christ’s death is incompatible with his Deity. Christ died by a divine condescension to realise the dispensation of our salvation. The holiness of the Theotokos is - like that of any other Christian - but a participation in His, the realisation in her of His image (but in her case alone it is a perfect participation and realisation). Her dying is a fitting manifestation of the fact that her deification is utterly dependant on His Paschal Mystery.

    Arguments based on what these “ordinary Catholics” believe are, I think not particularly helpful. In my experience, they are not usually inclined to speculate about theological matters at all, and certainly do not usually have opinions about the Filioque or the details of the manner of Our Lady’s passing to heavenly glory.

    Before, however, Orthodox polemicists leap on this and taunt us with the ignorance of ordinary Catholics, they should try living in an Orthodox country, and outside the rarefied atmosphere of a North American convert culture. If I were to go out right now into the street and ask passers by (95% of whom will be Orthodox) to give me a resumé of their Church’s teaching on any number of points, I know from experience that most of the replies would deconcert - to say the least - their more sophisticated coreligionists here. I have always been impatient, andhave often expressed my irritation, with Catholic friends and colleagues who gleefully seize upon the popular misconceptions of ordinary believers and use them as a stick to beat Orthodoxy. I know it has been said before, but I wish more Orthodox contributors to our debates would cease to compare the Platonic ideal of the Orthodox Church with the messy reality of the Catholic Church. I will refrain from seeking to catalogue the absurdities of some popular Orthodox religiosity in Greece. In any case, someone could no doubt be found who would blithely explain how they are the result of Western influence…


  26. on July 21, 2008 at 8:19 pm Edward De Vita

    “I would argue that this is not a proper analogue, because 1) one could take Luther’s view that infants have a natural desire for baptism. In other words, the desire of God is rooted in the nature (per Maximus), in which infants have an ineffable manner of expressing. Or 2) Augustine’s view that the Church is the human agency that baptism is performed. Both represent a synergistic process in which the human will is active. Theosis is recapitulational. This the IC undermines.”

    If infants have a natural desire for baptism then so does the child just conceived, unless you want to argue that there is some substantial difference between the later infant and the conceptus.
    The problem with the 2nd view is that it is a rather weird view of synergy, unless you believe that my being divinized can occur through your synergy. But let me ask you this. When the human nature of our Lord was sanctified (from the very moment of His conception) through being joined to the Person of the Divine Word, where was the synergy there? What role did human agency play in this?
    Besides, what makes you think there wasn’t synergy in the second sense. Our Lady’s parents were, by all accounts, very holy. Surely, they desired the fullness of grace for their daughter. If you’re going to hold out for vicarious synergy, why can’t her parents count? Or, better still, why can’t Israel itself count as such, since She awaited in faithful expectation, the coming of the Messiah and the mother of the Messiah?

    “1) RC theologians don’t think that Mary inherited concupiscence and 2) Concupiscence remains in the baptized per RC sacramental theology.
    This leaves you with an arbitrary notion of what corruptions you allow Mary to inherit and one’s that you do not as a result of the fall.”

    The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will. But it is not some arbitrary exception. The reason for holding to Mary’s freedom from concupiscence is that it is viewed as not compatible with her “fullness” of grace. Hence, it is not, strictly speaking, linked to the IC, but rather, to the notion of a plenitude of grace, higher than any received by any other creature. Any of the consequences of the fall that do not bear any relation to moral imperfection, i.e., death, infirmity, weakness, etc…. are compatible with the IC and the fullness of grace.

    The positive reason for holding to the IC is found in the mystery of the Church of which our Lady is the type, the New Eve, who, through her obedience, undoes what Eve did through her disobedience. The Church is, in her very nature, holy and immaculate, without spot or wrinkle. Moreover, the Church is such from the very moment of her existence. But Mary prefigures the Church in her own person. She displayed in her person during the course of her life on earth what will only be revealed of the Church at the end of time. This is what modern biblical exegetes call “realized eschatology.”

    Ed


  27. on July 21, 2008 at 8:34 pm diane

    In my experience, they [ordinary Catholics] are not usually inclined to speculate about theological matters at all, and certainly do not usually have opinions about the Filioque or the details of the manner of Our Lady’s passing to heavenly glory.[/i]

    You can say that again, Father! And thereby hangs a tale. :)


  28. on July 21, 2008 at 9:40 pm Photios Jones

    “If infants have a natural desire for baptism then so does the child just conceived,”

    I don’t think this will work, first the ordo is desire and then grace applied whereas in the IC, there is NO MOMENT of time at which the Virgin had original sin (loss of sanctifying grace). Your analogue would work better for John the Baptist leaping in the womb perhaps (as a theologoumenon). The latter has synergism the IC does not.

    “unless you want to argue that there is some substantial difference between the later infant and the conceptus.”

    I think I addressed this above.

    “Our Lady’s parents were, by all accounts, very holy. Surely, they desired the fullness of grace for their daughter. If you’re going to hold out for vicarious synergy, why can’t her parents count?”

    We have no witness saying that this is certain. First, union of God is something personal has things that are in existence, not things in non-existence. For them to even have that desire, they have to have a conception of that desire. Second, they have to be doing the intention of Christ, something that is sacramental. My baptism IS Christ’s baptism. It is Recapitulational. Though, Mary’s parents were synergistic in bringing Mary into existence, I don’t see how this is synergy for Mary’s theosis. God is the sole actor in her being exempt from original sin.

    You’re right that vicarious synergism is a little weaker and somewhat awkward, this was Augustine’s argument for synergism in infants, which he obviously subsumed under a strong predestinarianism that I don’t.

    What St. Maximos argues that what infants are given in there baptism is of potentia, that can only be made *active* through employment of the will to attain theosis.

    I accept all 3 glosses (and some better for others), but what I find appalling and predestinarian is the IC, something I cannot accept. To the point, that I might as well give up the ghost and be a predelectionist or maybe just a Neoplatonist. So, far from being an argument for needless controversey, I have real existential problems with the doctrine.

    “But let me ask you this. When the human nature of our Lord was sanctified (from the very moment of His conception) through being joined to the Person of the Divine Word, where was the synergy there? What role did human agency play in this?”

    This is Augustine’s argument in Predestination of the Saints. Christ is the most illustrious example of predestination and this takes place *by grace.* This is also the quintessential proof text of the Spanish Adoptionists. Let me explain. What you’ve done in this passage, by means of the Augustinian ordo theologiae, is that you now have a predestinating Son and a predestined human nature. You either divide Christ, Nestorian style, and see Christ as the predestined man or you have a divine attribute of *predestination* between God and Jesus Christ, which Karl Barth took to be Arian, because there are no interposition of divine operations *between* the Persons. Do you see the problem with this? The problem ends up being the very order and categories in which these things are being addressed (and not necessarily the question itself). I recommend you review the Spanish Adoptionist controversey or even Karl Barth.

    “The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will.”

    I’ve never heard that before. If your *exempt* from the *stain* or you lack the absence of being full of grace, then this is inherently deductive. I’ve never seen this gloss before. Perhaps you can give me a reference here.

    “Any of the consequences of the fall that do not bear any relation to moral imperfection, i.e., death, infirmity, weakness, etc…. are compatible with the IC and the fullness of grace.”

    This is a re-statement of your conclusion. You need to connect the dots of how this follows.

    Photios


  29. on July 21, 2008 at 10:04 pm Ad Orientem

    Given the universal disagreement with my anecdotal experience I am inclined to concede that I was mistaken in my assumptions.

    ICXC
    John


  30. on July 21, 2008 at 10:10 pm diane

    Thank you, John! It takes a big person to admit being wrong. And it’s rather rare on the Internet, too. :)


  31. on July 21, 2008 at 10:12 pm diane

    Could someone please explain to me why it is constantly asserted that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on the Augustinian doctrine of “Original Guilt” when the latter term is not in the official definition? The word “stain” is used, but what is to prevent us taking that in an ontological rather than legal sense?

    Great questions, Father Kirby!


  32. on July 21, 2008 at 10:40 pm Pontificator

    “The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will.”

    I’ve never heard that before. If your *exempt* from the *stain* or you lack the absence of being full of grace, then this is inherently deductive. I’ve never seen this gloss before. Perhaps you can give me a reference here.

    Edward is quite correct. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not explicitly address the question of the Blessed Virgin’s freedom from concupiscence, as acknowledged by John Paul II. You should know this, Daniel.

    This isn’t a matter of logic! Rightly or wrongly, the Catholic Church refuses to attribute sin to the Blessed Virgin Mary. She insists that from the beginning of her existence, by the grace of Christ, Mary enjoyed a life of nonalienation from the Triune God. Is the Orthodox Church committed to the sinfulness of the Theotokos?

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Catholic polemics, the Orthodox Church would unreservedly answer, NO!


  33. on July 21, 2008 at 10:43 pm diane

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Catholic polemics, the Orthodox Church would unreservedly answer, NO!

    Precisely James Likoudis’s point, when he cited examples of 19th-century Orthodox devotion to the IC.

    Thank you, Father Kimel.


  34. on July 21, 2008 at 11:37 pm Photios Jones

    “Rightly or wrongly, the Catholic Church refuses to attribute sin to the Blessed Virgin Mary.”

    Al, the blessed virgin does not inherit sin, and here’s the kicker for you: nobody does.

    “The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not explicitly address the question of the Blessed Virgin’s freedom from concupiscence.”

    Okay, if you want to go that route of explicitness, that’s fine, but I’ve never seen a theologian deny that she had concupiscence. So I think Ed is giving short sight to something that is a little more certain than implied.

    Let’s read what your link states:

    Pius IX’s definition refers only to the freedom from original sin and **does not explicitly** include the freedom from concupiscence. **Nevertheless,** Mary’s complete preservation from every stain of sin **also has as a consequence** her freedom from concupiscence, a disordered tendency which, according to the Council of Trent, comes from sin and inclines to sin (DS 1515). 3. Granted “by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God”, this preservation from original sin is an absolutely gratuitous divine favour, which Mary received at the first moment of her existence.

    It is never been taught to me that the former didn’t imply the latter. In fact, every major theologian I’ve read has taught what I just stated. This is exactly what JPII does here, by deductive reasoning she’s exempt from concupiscence. Why? Because concupiscence proceeds FROM sin as a consequence thereof. Every Catholic theologian I know would be astonished to think that Mary inherited concupiscence.

    “Is the Orthodox Church committed to the sinfulness of the Theotokos?”

    No the Orthodox Church has no committment either way, and that’s part of the problem that you don’t seem to understand. You don’t make a doctrine a dogma that’s HIGHLY speculative in nature. That’s making dogma something beyond revelation and a product of reason.

    Where do I stand personally? I believe Mary was a sinner just like everyone of us. And I have good company, Chrysostom and Basil. Big names there Al. I join with them that whatever slight failings of sin she had, she was as in need of the same grace of the Redeemer in the same fashion that I am. As far as the Economy and her Vocation she is more loved than me just as Jacob is more loved than Esau as being the blood line for the progenitor of the Messiah. But with respect to her relation to God regarding salvation, she is loved no more than me, no more than you, no more than the rest of the common human stock that come forth from Adam. You make God the predestinarian of Calvin all under the cover of the Blessed Virgin and the IC. Well let me tell you, we that are thinking people object, there is something in the human spirit that will always object to in this predilection. If someone wants to believe the IC as a pios opinion, go for it, I think its madness, but I wouldn’t break communion over it. But Rome has done something different. She’s shut off all dialogue in the cover of wanting dialogue so as not to be contradicting the doctrine. She’s dogmatized this view and closed the door no matter how many times and ways you wish to slice it.

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Orthodox Catholic ecumenism, the Orthodox will have the same answer: we refuse to go beyond and dogmatize speculations.

    Now, do you have answer and argument to the predestinarianism in the IC, or no?

    Photios


  35. on July 22, 2008 at 3:43 am evagrius

    Interesting and confusing arguments all around.

    I’ve always thought of the Immaculate Conception as intimately related to the Annunciation.

    Mary said “Yes”. This “yes” was a free yes, one under no compulsion, delusion, conditioning or habit. That is, it was said without sin.

    It was under the same conditions as Eve’s “Yes” to Satan except that “Yes” became sin since it was a “No” to God.

    After all, one could argue that Eve was also immaculately conceived.


  36. on July 22, 2008 at 4:16 am Edward De Vita

    “I don’t think this will work, first the ordo is desire and then grace applied whereas in the IC, there is NO MOMENT of time at which the Virgin had original sin (loss of sanctifying grace). Your analogue would work better for John the Baptist leaping in the womb perhaps (as a theologoumenon). The latter has synergism the IC does not.”

    Actually, desire is not sufficient for synergism. Desire must lead to acceptance of grace. But acceptance of grace is always contemporaneous with the reception of grace. Hence, the temporal lag that you insist on is unnecessary. Mind you, I don’t really buy this theory at all and I don’t think it really does the job you want it to do. An infant simply cannot accept the grace of baptism. There may be a desire in human nature for God, but since the infant is not consciously aware of this desire, it cannot personally cooperate with God to attain the grace of baptism. Hence, you run the risk of turning synergism into an activity of the nature rather than of the person.

    “What St. Maximos argues that what infants are given in there baptism is of potentia, that can only be made *active* through employment of the will to attain theosis.”

    Catholic theology says nothing different. The baptized individual must cooperate with the grace received in baptism in order to grow into union with God. But I don’t see how this solves the problem you’ve posed of the need for synergy even in infant baptism.

    “What you’ve done in this passage, by means of the Augustinian ordo theologiae, is that you now have a predestinating Son and a predestined human nature. You either divide Christ, Nestorian style, and see Christ as the predestined man or you have a divine attribute of *predestination* between God and Jesus Christ, which Karl Barth took to be Arian, because there are no interposition of divine operations *between* the Persons. Do you see the problem with this?”

    I haven’t even mentioned the word “predestination.” So, I’m rather unclear as to how you get this out of what I said. Do you believe that in assuming our human nature the Word healed that nature? Was there ever a time when the human nature assumed by the Word was not healed? If not, where, on your account, is the synergism to be found? Remember, you’re the one who allowed for synergy to be attributed to the nature rather than to the person.

    “Al, the blessed virgin does not inherit sin, and here’s the kicker for you: nobody does.”

    Interesting. Then what do you make of these words of St. Symeon the New Theologian:

    “That saying that calls no one sinless except God, even though he has lived only one day on earth, does not refer to those who sin personally, because how can a one-day old child sin? But in this is expressed that mystery of our Faith, that human nature is sinful from its very conception. God did not create man sinful, but pure and holy. But since the first-created Adam lost this garment of sanctity, not from any other sin but from pride alone, and became corruptible and mortal, all people also who come from the seed of Adam are participants of the ancestral sin from their very conception and birth. He who has been born in this way, even though he has not yet performed any sin, is already sinful through this ancestral sin.”
    (The Sin of Adam, Homily 37, Ch. 3)

    It would seem that Symeon disagrees with you and holds it to be a mystery of Faith that human nature is sinful from its conception. So, who speaks for Orthodoxy: you or Symeon? I take it you confess the creed every week at Divine Liturgy. When you confess that you believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, do you add the clause “except for infants who have no sin”? The creed certainly makes no such exception.

    Ed


  37. on July 22, 2008 at 9:49 am diane

    evagrius: Of course you are precisely correct re the parallelism between the Old Eve and the New Eve. This, as I’m sure you know far better than I, was a common Patristic theme.


  38. on July 22, 2008 at 9:54 am Fr Paul

    OK. Without wishing - or having the time - to go into the detailed questions raised above, it might be helpful to set out for readers the AUGUSTINIAN teaching on Original Sin (OS henceforth), because this is certainly the theological background to the dogmatic definition.

    What is the consequence of Adam’s sin in all his posterity according to Augustine? It is threefold:

    1) The PRIVATION of superantural (sanctifying) grace and of the preternatural gifts (immortality, integrity etc.)
    2) Concupiscence.
    3) “Reatus culpae”, a juridical term which literally means “being guilty of an offence and liable to punishment” and which I above, for brevity and convenience, called “original guilt”.

    Now, as I said this is the theological background and framework of the definition of the IC, because it was massively dominant in Catholic theoogy in the 19th C. and had been for centuries. It also provides the framework and language of the Tridentine decrees on OS, justification etc. for the same reasons. Does this mean that The notion of “original guilt” is part of Catholic doctrine? I am not sure, but I admit I need to do more work on this.

    As I understand it, Orthodox theolians strenuously object to the notion of a “reatus culpae” in the ancestral sin. I suspect that they are basically right. They tend to concentrate on the privation of the preternatural gifts as being the essence of OS. It is my impression that there is something akin to a privation of sanctifying grace and to concupiscence in the teaching of the Greek Fathers, but of course they don’t use the language of Latin theology. I would like to learn more about what modern Orthodox theologians think of these aspects. This discussion is helping.

    Now, the point has been made that the definition of 1854 does not adress specifically the question of concupiscence. Moreover, since Catholic theology is - now at least - basicaly unanimous in accepting that Mary died (it was fitting that she be conformed in all things to the Paschal Mystery of her Son), it would not seem that she received the preternatural gifts (at least not all of them). So does the IC just mean that she was free from “reatus culpae”?

    Photius and I agree that she was, but Photius thinks that everybody was and I think he is probably right on this. The definition of 1854 speaks of a “singular privilege”. So if (as I suspect) the notion of “original guilt” is not part of Catholic dogma, then either the IC consists in something other than being exempt from it (what I will call its negative import), or (as I said above in post n° 1) it might not in fact have any meaning.

    In fact, many commentators above have pointed out the positive import of the doctrine: Mary was conceived in God’s freindship, and remained absolutely so and absolutely free from sin throughut her life. It seems to me that this is certainly the consensus of the (post-Nicene) Fathers east and West and that it is implicit in the Byzantine liturgical texts which speak of the Theotokos. It certainly does seem that retreat from this on the part of some modern Orthodox theologians is the result of a reaction to the Roman definition.

    Reaction (eg. to arianism) has played an essential role in forming our Creed. I do not, however, think that it has been generally helpful in the context of a divided christendom which accepts the Nicene settlement. It has led to deleterious effects in Catholic theology, whereby we have neglected and indeed almost annihilated some aspects of our own tradition because they were used by the “enemy” (take as an example the suspicion with which the reading of scripture by layfolk was regarded in some Catholic circles after the Reformation). I think that this is what has happened when some Orthodox “defer” the sanctification of the Theotokos to the Annunciation - that they are amputating a part of their own tradition out of a desire to set themselves apart from the West (and what of the meaning of the Feast of her Presentation by the way?) I believe that Damascene - just to take one example - would regard talk of her as a sinner as impiety, just as much as would Augustine. And I will admit that it pains me to read such things from the pen of writers for whom I have a sincere respect.


  39. on July 22, 2008 at 11:22 am Hieromonk Gregory

    I believe Metropolitan Callistos does a fine job when he discusses the development of the IC doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church. Therein he states that the real issue is not about Mary Immaculate but about the nature and definition of Original Sin from an Augustinian rather than from the viewpoint of St. John Cassian. We know that the doctrine of the IC was very much debated by Popes and theologians alike. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholics both agree that Mary, while a part of our sinful race, is the purest of all of God’s people with the exception of Christ Himself. Both Churces have a liturgical celebration of the Conception of the Theotokos by St. Anne in December, just as the Orthodox celebrate the Conception of St. John the Baptist in September, remembering the Gsopel of St. Luke account. Personally I see no problem believing in something akin to the Immaculate Conception; the problem lies in the need or the lack of need in defining it in 19th Century. I agree with a previous writer that this issue is more connected with Papal Supremacy than it is with the sinlessness of the Holy Virgin. Let us give it time for the dialogue to unfold between the 2 churches. Commemorating our all holy, immaculate, most highly blessed, and glorious ever Virgin Mary with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and each other unto Christ Our God.


  40. on July 22, 2008 at 11:24 am Hieromonk Gregory

    Just an aside: I was born on the Feast of the Conception of the Immaculate Theotokos, and ordained a priest on the Conception of St. John the Baptist.


  41. on July 22, 2008 at 11:59 am diane

    Therein he states that the real issue is not about Mary Immaculate but about the nature and definition of Original Sin from an Augustinian rather than from the viewpoint of St. John Cassian.

    Pardon me, but ISTM that even framing the debate in such terms is unnecessarily (and dangerously) ideological and partisan. Should dogma be a matter of Dueling Theologians? Doesn’t the IC transcend both Augustine and Cassian?


  42. on July 22, 2008 at 12:01 pm diane

    BTW, I am also inclined to think that perhaps Father Paul (forgive me, Father!) goes too far in conceding Photios Jones’ points, which (to my mind at least) border on Pelagianism.


  43. on July 22, 2008 at 1:14 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    In fact, Diane, it points out that there was never a consensus on the matter, but remained in the realm of theologoumena until the time of Pio Nono. However, my point was on the various opinions regarding original sin and its consequences, which is the framework of the doctrine of the nature of the conception of the Mother of God. Again popes and theologians defended or fought against the idea; if you need more information seek out some more sources that one can obtain from the internet or from a library. By the way there have been those in the West who accused St. John Cassian of semi-Pelagianism, and others who sided with his theology.


  44. on July 22, 2008 at 1:29 pm diane

    if you need more information seek out some more sources that one can obtain from the internet or from a library.

    This seems to assume that I have never studied the question. Thank you, Hieromonk Gregory, for assuming my ignornce. ;)


  45. on July 22, 2008 at 2:04 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    No Diane it does not, hence the word IF. The point is I know nothing about you , your education and the like. To assume in either direction would indeed be foolish.


  46. on July 22, 2008 at 2:17 pm diane

    Well, assuming my ignorance is a safe assumption…but I’ve read a few things re the IC. ;) Undoubtedly need to read more.

    Sorry for testiness.

    Diane


  47. on July 22, 2008 at 3:32 pm Photios Jones

    “Actually, desire is not sufficient for synergism. Desire must lead to acceptance of grace. But acceptance of grace is always contemporaneous with the reception of grace. Hence, the temporal lag that you insist on is unnecessary. Mind you, I don’t really buy this theory at all and I don’t think it really does the job you want it to do. ”

    Ed,
    You may not think it is a good theory, but I’m committed to maintaining synergism from start to finish on pains of Monotheletism or Monergism. I’m not committed to one theory alone or inflexible about the mechanism if one is better than another. But I’m not satisfied as to what is put forth as a relationship of human and divine as I see it in the IC. This is a clear example of gratia irresistibilis.

    “There may be a desire in human nature for God, but since the infant is not consciously aware of this desire, it cannot personally cooperate with God to attain the grace of baptism.”

    I disagree, this comes very close to seeing personhood or a person as definable by consciousness, something I deny.

    “I haven’t even mentioned the word “predestination.” So, I’m rather unclear as to how you get this out of what I said.”

    I don’t think you have to, the concept was in your writing as you were alluding to an argument knowingly or unknowingly to Augustine in Predestination of the Saints, that Christ’s human nature is the most illustrious example of predestination.

    “Remember, you’re the one who allowed for synergy to be attributed to the nature rather than to the person”

    Absolutely, free choice or synergy is a property of the nature, because it can be said about every person. What is common is of the nature, what is absolutely unique is of the person. This is Maximus Dyothelite Christology.

    As to your quote of Symeon, I’ll have to see the Greek, and see how it is used in context. Maximus uses sin in both a personal sense regarding guilt, and in a wider sense that is natural: corruption. If Symeon is using it in the former sense, he is WRONG. Sin as guilt is personal, not natural. To say a sin nature in sense of guilt, is to confuse person and nature. Since I doubt that Symeon would contradict Byzantine theology as a whole, I quite confident he means sin as corruption. Try reading Maximus on 2 Cor 5:21, which he does not couch Christ’s taking on sin in a legal sense, but an ontological sense.

    On that note, I’m not really moved by spoof texts with out an exegetical analysis or unless you know of a representative work that has analyzed the text in place of your own. Furthermore, to make Symeon say something that both of us would disagree with doesn’t seem to give him a charitable read.

    “When you confess that you believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, do you add the clause “except for infants who have no sin”? The creed certainly makes no such exception.”

    Have you read John Chrysostom on this gloss? The context is “sins.” Plural. There is no plurality of “sins” in infants, so it doesn’t speak to that application. It’s the same with the Psalm text where David was conceived in “sins,” plural, not sin. This is a complete misreading of the text by the Augustinian party. In other words, David was conceived into a world of sins, not that he inherited sin. Pace John Chrysostom.

    Diane,

    I’m not a Pelagian and I’d really question if you could articulate exactly what that thesis is. First, Pelagius thought Death was natural and that Adam and his progenity were destined to die irrespsective if Adam sinned or not. In other words, Pelagius thinks that Death is a property of the nature qua nature. Secondly, Pelagius thinks that grace is simply all the human faculties and there proper use. The Law leads to the example of Christ that everybody can perform.

    My view cuts that off at the knees. The problem of the fall is Death, obviously existentially Pelagius doesn’t see this as much of a problem. No amount of law keeping is going to save you from Death. This is the grace of Christ wrought in the Incarnation. I disagree with Catholicism/Thomism/Arminianism/Molinism, etc. Cassian and Maximus’ view is that you don’t need a *special* act of grace to orient you towards God that the grace of the Incarnation by dint of our consubstantiality hasn’t already done for you. This is the main thesis why Sts. John Cassian and Vincent of Lerins are glossed as “semi-Pelagians.” I put this in quote because this is the Western categorical distinction, and what I take to be the Augustinian party of Fulgentius, Prosper of Aquitaine and other Augustinians, whether they be of the mild or strict variety, and their appropriation of these men as just poor Christology. Furthermore, I really don’t care or have the fear about the person that THAT label is associated with (Pelagius) but the rightness of the ideas expressed. Pelagius was indeed wrong, but equally so was Augustine.

    For further reading on what I think you can either read my paper ‘Synergy in Christ’ on my blog or this paper:

    http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

    Photios


  48. on July 22, 2008 at 3:33 pm Fr Paul

    Diane
    I appreciate your bringing up the point abou Pelagianism - I was considering going further into the relationship between nature and grace but didn’t want to make my post too long or overburden the subject matter. Now that we are approaching the 50-posts mark, I’d like to add just a word on that subject before our long-suffering host brings down his dreaded guillotine!

    I too find Photios dangerously close tp Pelagianism. This might not worry him, because most Orthodox regard it as at best an intra-Western quarrel which doesn’t concern them. But id does worry me, as it worries you.

    I concede two points to Photius: I think that he is probably right (and thus that St Augustine is probably not right) in rejecting the notion that human beings are conceived guilty and deserving punishment (allthough they are most certainly born in sin, for this reality is a multi-faceted phenomenon which exceeds the juridical notions expressed in the phrase “reatus culpae”. I prefer to speak of a wound…); morevover, I think that he is probably right in thinking that Augustine followed his own too inexorable logic and went too far in a predestinarian sense. More on this another time, if God permits…

    This does not stop me regarding myself as an Augustinian, however. The central thrust of Augustine’s theology is that God always has the initiative and the human element always has the character of a response to God’s unmerited gift. I am perfectly happy with talk of synergy and regret that Catholic theologians in the past dismissed this too sniffily and were too quick to talk of semi-Pelagianism (the whole concept of which is historically speaking a dubious postulate at best). I think that the Greek patristic notion of synergy leaves intact the principle I have adumbrated above, viz. of the absolute priority of the divine initiative.

    Thus, I would respond to Photius that the notion that the Theotokos was sinles from the first moment of her human existence is not only not repugnant to a balanced theology of grace and human freedom, but emminently compatible with it and illustrative of it. The notion of synergy comes in when we assert that all her human actions, up to and beyond her fiat at the Annunciation, were freely elicited responses to and under grace.

    My disagreement with Photius (at least if I read him correctly) takes away nothing, however, from the fact that I am broadly sympathetic to many of his points, and that I wish to see Catholic theology engage positively with them. I think also that we Catholics should try to understand and consider sympatheically Orthodox worries about the apropriateness of turning what was previously a matter of theological speculation into a dogma, without there being apparant any pressing need to do so.


  49. on July 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm Fr Paul

    Photius
    while I was writing my last post, and before I posted it, you posted yours. It raises some interesting points which I want to think about, and I will read your paper. For now though, I disagree strongly that Augustine was wrong just as much as Pelagius was. The central thrust of Pelagius’ thougght was way off target; Augutine’s central thrust was correct. It is good that we are talking.


  50. on July 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    Follow this link and read the treatment Fr. Hughes gives on the subject of Original Sin. He is concise and very clear in his presentation.

    http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/2004
    -hughes-sin.php


  51. on July 22, 2008 at 4:02 pm Photios Jones

    “The central thrust of Augustine’s theology is that God always has the initiative and the human element always has the character of a response to God’s unmerited gift.”

    Fr. Paul,
    Here’s where I would dialogue with you with the start of a question: Why would you consider this initiative irrespective of or in abstraction to and not first considering this “preparation for grace” without Christ as the paradigm and starting point? And here I admit I’m being critical of the theological manuals of western historiography that first consider the divine essence, move to consider the attributes of this essence (predestination being one of these attributes), and then we move on to a discussion of the Persons. We don’t get to a discussion of the grace of Christ or the Incarnation until after the general concepts have been established. Thus, the Incarnation is fits under the broader category of Predestination from this perspective. In other words, how can you consider a doctrine of predestination, without first discussing Christ and his Economy? I think this ‘initiative of grace’ is done, and done for every person that will exist, in Christ recapitulating human nature and restoring it: Christ’s trials and renewing all the types of the Old Testament, Israel’s history, Infant for Infants, young man for young men, an Adult for Adults.

    Indeed, from an Orthodox view, the IC is a non-problem, because we would believe the divine subsists in every person: naturally.

    To quote from Maximus Disputation,

    Pyrrhus: Virtues, then, are natural things?

    Maximus: Yes, natural things.

    Pyrrhus: If they be natural things, why do they not exist in all men equally, since all men have an identical nature?

    Maximus: But they do exist equally in all men because of the identical nature!

    Pyrrhus: Then why is there such a great disparity [of virtues] in us?

    Maximus: Because we do not all practice what is natural to us to an equal degree; indeed, if we [all] practiced equally [those virtues] natural to us as we were created to do, then one would be able to perceive one virtue in us all, just as there is one nature [in us all], and “one virtue” would not admit of a “more” or “less.”

    Pyrrhus: If virtue be something natural [to us], and if what is natural to us existeth not through asceticism but by reason of our creation, then why is it that we acquire the virtues, which are natural, with asceticism and labours?

    Maximus: Asceticism, and the toils that go with it, was devised simply in order to ward off deception, which established itself through sensory perception. It is not [as if] the virtues have
    been newly introduced from outside, for they inhere in us from creation, as hath already been said. Therefore, when deception is completely expelled, the soul immediately exhibits the splendor of its natural virtue.

    Photios


  52. on July 22, 2008 at 4:04 pm Carlos Palad

    That Mary did not die a natural death, but was simply assumed into heaven, was a widespread teaching in Catholic circles in the first half of the twentieth century, especially in Hispanic areas as well as in the Franciscan Order. This is the reason why Munificentissimus Deus carefully refrains from speaking of the natural death of the Virgin Mary.


  53. on July 22, 2008 at 4:09 pm diane

    I prefer to speak of a wound…); morevover, I think that he is probably right in thinking that Augustine followed his own too inexorable logic and went too far in a predestinarian sense. More on this another time, if God permits….

    I could not agree more, Father!

    Here’s hoping our gracious host does not shut down this combox. :) Perhaps, in that case, we could move the discussion to the other more recent post re the IC.


  54. on July 22, 2008 at 4:12 pm Photios Jones

    Heiromonk Gregory,

    Very good article. Quite sound in my opinion.

    Photios


  55. on July 22, 2008 at 4:16 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    LOL. I am sure that Fr. Anthony would be pleased to hear of your reaction.


  56. on July 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm Photios Jones

    Fr. Paul,

    “The central thrust of Pelagius’ thougght was way off target”

    Yes and no from my perspective. His anthropology is way off in considering what is natural to man qua nature. His view of death is very secular in that regard. However the fact that he wants to think that grace is natural, I think he is moving in the right direction. The problem I see with this is that he doesn’t see human nature in a wider cosmological sense as having a divine component. When I say that Augustine is equally wrong, I mean simply to say that I think he equally confuses person and nature in an opposite direction of Pelagius in his anthropology.

    Photios


  57. on July 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm Photios Jones

    Hieromonk Gregory,

    Why would he be surprised? It’s just good ol’ standard doctrine presented in a concise manner. Good stuff that I cut my teeth on back in the day I was examining these issues for the first time.

    Photios


  58. on July 22, 2008 at 4:55 pm john di

    “…What makes the divine active or energetic is when we recapitulate the works of Christ. Starting with our baptism or with an active faith in adults…”

    Since the Incarnation began at the Annunciation—at Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb—why doesn’t recapitulation start at conception? And if it does start at conception, why can’t the recapitulative graces given to Mary be those of the IC?


  59. on July 22, 2008 at 5:06 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    The comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.


  60. on July 22, 2008 at 5:17 pm Photios Jones

    Heiromonk Gregory,
    My bad, I thought there might’ve been something in there I missed. Thanks though!


  61. on July 22, 2008 at 5:41 pm Photios Jones

    “Since the Incarnation began at the Annunciation—at Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb—why doesn’t recapitulation start at conception?”

    Well I think it does with regard to Christ, but in my view Christ receives a corrupted humanity and starts to heal it, not just in becoming Incarnate but in all His recapitulatory works. And, that the basis of our redemption is Him *receiving* that corrupted humanity. He gets this corrupted humanity from Mary.


  62. on July 22, 2008 at 8:35 pm john di

    Photios,

    When you say “Christ receives a corrupted humanity”, what does that mean? Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?

    Thanks


  63. on July 22, 2008 at 8:43 pm Photios Jones

    “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection.

    No his Person is not corrupted.


  64. on July 22, 2008 at 11:21 pm evagrius

    “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s (sic) full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection.

    No his Person is not corrupted.”

    Well…there goes the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.

    I guess you’ll agree then with those who argue that it’s a post-Resurrection story.

    Loved the last part- so, there’s the “Person” of Christ and then there’s His “corrupted human nature” somewhat like an appendage that’s being healed.


  65. on July 23, 2008 at 1:47 am Edward De Vita

    “You may not think it is a good theory, but I’m committed to maintaining synergism from start to finish on pains of Monotheletism or Monergism. I’m not committed to one theory alone or inflexible about the mechanism if one is better than another. But I’m not satisfied as to what is put forth as a relationship of human and divine as I see it in the IC. This is a clear example of gratia irresistibilis.”

    Photios,

    I am not unsympathetic with your project of trying to maintain synergy in the whole process of salvation. For my part, I do not deny synergy, I simply deny that it requires the time lag that you seem to think so essential to it. The role of human agency in salvation is to accept the grace of God. All our ascetic struggle, prayer, vigils, good works, etc… are nothing more than an attempt to open our hearts to God Himself. But acceptance of God’s grace, though logically prior to reception need not necessarily be temporally prior. Hence your argument that the IC doctrine contradicts synergy seems incorrect to me.

    “I disagree, this comes very close to seeing personhood or a person as definable by consciousness, something I deny.”

    If I’ve understood you correctly, you seem to be confusing being and action. The fact that I possess the sense of sight does not mean that I am always using it. Similarly, to say that an infant is unable to personally cooperate in attaining the grace of baptism is not the same thing as saying that it is not a person or that its personhood depends upon consciousness. But perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning.

    “I don’t think you have to, the concept was in your writing as you were alluding to an argument knowingly or unknowingly to Augustine in Predestination of the Saints, that Christ’s human nature is the most illustrious example of predestination.”

    I’ll leave this point aside. Just for the record, I don’t agree with St. Augustine’s view of predestination. So, if I’m somehow using an argument that implies his view, I rescind the argument.

    “Absolutely, free choice or synergy is a property of the nature, because it can be said about every person. What is common is of the nature, what is absolutely unique is of the person. This is Maximus Dyothelite Christology.”

    There is no doubt that free choice as such is a property of the nature. But my choices are not yours and hence are not properties of human nature but of my person. And it is individual choices that determine one’s growth in grace. But perhaps you are saying that the infant’s free choice is always in accord with its nature which desires God so that, in this case, what is a property of the nature is also a property of the person. The only difficulty with this is that it fails to avoid the whole problem of irresistible grace. The infant’s natural desire for God is so strong that he/she can choose nothing other than God’s grace when it is made present. That’s precisely what is meant by irresistible grace.

    Ed


  66. on July 23, 2008 at 2:46 am Chaka

    Photios,
    I went through some of your posts.If m not wrong,your thinking is that the idea that Mary suffered death some how debunks the doctrine of the IC.What about her Son[Jesus Christ]?Would like to know what you think about her Son.Do you believe He was without sin[original/actual sin]?If you do,then how do you relate this with the fact that He suffered death?


  67. on July 23, 2008 at 2:47 am Perry Robinson

    The above article in terms of historical explanation seems to be mistaken. If the authors take were right, we’d be left unable to explain the denial of the IC among the Scholastics. Was Aquinas not forced to define original sin over against the Pelagians? Was the doctrine not sufficiently understood in the 13th century? And Aquinas wasn’t the only Latin Scholastic who denied the doctrine of IC. You can’t chalk up an Orthodox lack or denial of the doctrine to a lack of interaction with Pelagianism.


  68. on July 23, 2008 at 3:03 am diane

    Good grief. If this is the sort of stuff theologians bruit back and forth, then it’s a wonder there are any theologians in Heaven.

    Let’s hear it for all those layfolk — Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant — who haven’t a clue what half the people here are talking about but who spend their time in prayer and good works, helping out at their parishes, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.

    They will enter the Kingdom before us!


  69. on July 23, 2008 at 3:11 am Perry Robinson

    Ed,

    Gregory Palamas following Maximus and citing Diadochus states the following.

    “Divine grace confers on us two gifts through the baptism of regeneration, one being infinitely superior to the other. The first is given to us at once, when grace renews us in the actual waters of baptism and cleanses all the lineaments of our soul, that is, the image of God in us, by washing away every stain of sin. The second-our likeness to God requires our co-operation.” Defense of the Spiritual Ascent of the Hesychast.

    Children receive the one and only bring to actualization the other. Baptismal regeneration then does not imply monergism or a denial of libertarian free will. As for the deification of Christ’s humanity, you ask what role did his human will play in this? If it didn’t play a role, then children who die have no hope in Christ, since Christ by basses their humanity in the recapitulation of human nature. It is the divine person using the will-the will is not a person unto itself.

    And the Orthodox do think that the theotokos was the product of the generations of sanctification of her ancestors. The point of the law was to refine a people for the incarnation.

    If death does not bear any relation to moral imperfection, then why think that moral imperfection brought death into the world? Further, this undermines Original Sin, since the motivaton for the doctrine in part is to explain why children die-because they suffer from libido or concupiscence. If these are not in some kind of bi-conditional or entailing relationship, then there is less reason to posit Original Sin as an explanation for the death of children. We could just say something like, they die but don’t have libido and don’t suffer from an analogous but collective guilt.

    Mary qua New Eve doesn’t seem a sufficient basis for IC since Eve wasn’t from our standpoint conceived in righteousness either. Her righteousness had to be achieved. If this is so, why would Mary need to be? If not, then this seems indicate the the IC entails the doctrine of original righteousness.

    The contemporaenity of grace with its reception really doesn’t seem to help with the freedom of the will. Further it seemingly undermines any defense for why God permits evil since freedom is the usual explanatory piece of data as to why God can’t create us automatically righteous. (http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/basil-answers-mackie/)

    An infant can accept the grace of baptism, it seems to me that the problem here is that you are glossing grace in strictly personalistic terms. If so, the work of Christ would potentially redeem all on the basis of those with potentially the right volitional/intellectual states (hypothetical universalism) or actually redeem only those with such states but a limited number. (Limited atonement). But in point of fact, all those dead in Adam are all raised up in Christ. Christ died for all because all were dead.
    What Photios means is free will is attributable to both person and nature since its employment is relative to person, whereas qua power it is relative to nature. Sin never removes the latter.

    Harmatia or sin can be spoken of in a wide or narrow sense. Wide in terms of sin in terms of corruption as in 2 cor 5:21 or narrow in terms of a personal act. Loosely speaking in terms of the first, human nature after the fall was sinful, but certainly not in terms of the secondd. And St. Symeon says nothing different.


  70. on July 23, 2008 at 3:59 am Edward De Vita

    Diane,
    I think you’ve got a point. Looking at my last post, I must admit it is rather cryptic. But then, I was simply trying to follow what Photios was saying and trying to give him a Catholic response. In any case, I’ll think I’ll just drop out of the conversation for a while.

    God bless,

    Ed


  71. on July 23, 2008 at 4:10 am Perry Robinson

    Al,

    I don’t think your argument does any work for the point you wish to hold. Notice what JP2 states.

    “Pius IX’s definition refers only to the freedom from original sin and does not explicitly include the freedom from concupiscence. Nevertheless, Mary’s complete preservation from every stain of sin also has as a consequence her freedom from concupiscence, a disordered tendency which, according to the Council of Trent, comes from sin and inclines to sin (DS 1515). 3.”

    Granted the definition does not “explicitly” include freedom from libido. That does not imply that it doesn’t include it or rules it out. Further the Pope says that it has “as a consequence” indicating an implied or causal relation between the definition and the idea of freedom from libido and the Pope affirms that she was freed from it. Is the pope wrong? Further, by the same mode of reasoning, we could reason that Mary was not redeemed either since as the pope noted “The text of the dogmatic definition does not expressly declare that Mary was redeemed…” Are Catholic prepared to say that Mary was not redeemed in the IC? I don’t think so.


  72. on July 23, 2008 at 4:14 am Perry Robinson

    Evagrius,

    If Mary’s yes implies her immaculate conception, and Eve’s yes implies the same then either Eve could not sin or Mary can. In which case, either the Fall is rendered inexplicable as with Calvinism or the IC is rendered useless as an explanatory model and a safe guard. Theophilius of Antioch makes it sufficiently clear that neither Adam nor Eve were created righteous and immortal from the get-go.
    If the taking up of corrupted human nature and an implied process of theosis implies that the Transfirguration is out the window, then if theosis of Christ humanity was already accomplished at the Transfiguraton, then the death of Christ is not only useless, but impossible since his humanity would already be immortal and that gets us into the heresy of apthartodocetism. Besides Scripture says Jesus was “glorified” after the Resurrection. (Jn 12:16)
    Furthermore, a distinction between Christ’s humanity and his divine person doesn’t imply that the latter was an appendage to the former per Chalcedon.


  73. on July 23, 2008 at 4:16 am Fr M Kirby

    I have often disagreed with things Photios has written. But this last set of statements has left me genuinely shocked:

    ” “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection. ”

    If you mean simply natural mortality by corruption, then I have no objection, as this is the merely physical aspect or result of the corruption and privation induced by the Fall. I accept Mary had this too. But if you mean corruption in the broader and more fundamental sense, including concupiscence, I am appalled.

    Jesus is the Redeemer and Healer of Sin, not the redeemed and healed, even in his human nature considered distinctly. So, his human nature was incorrupt in that sense. If this is due (partly) to Mary being the source, as is most fitting and biblical (note the perfect parallelism of Luke 1.42), then we have an entirely incorrupt (in soul) Mary, but one who must be redeemed, not Redeemer. This leads directly to the IC, that is, a complete sanctification leaving no room for concupiscence (IMO), and therefore ab initio, but by grace alone.

    This corruption (which is due to the Fall, and is otherwise known as Original Sin, setting aside the problematic concept of “Original Guilt”) in Orthodox/Catholic doctrine is more than physical death, whether in Eastern or Western Fathers. It includes the absence of Original Righteousness and the consequent presence and dominating power of concupiscence. This can be easily seen in, for example, St Cyril of Alexandria. It is simply false to say that Original Sin is simply or solely mortality (unless that mortality connotes spritual death as well) in the Eastern tradition. Therefore Christ’s mortality does not prove he inherited (and healed by enhypostasis and/or consequent human-divine synergy) a flawed human nature. Nor does Mary’s mortality prove she had such a human nature, which Jesus was thus given initially. It was God’s will to allow the continuance of physical mortality in both the Mother and Son, despite the lack of the normal “cause” (absence of sanctifying grace, presence of concupiscence), since this obviously was necessary to the complete salvific identification of the Saviour with the saved: like us in every way except for sin. To be blunt, it was impossible for the Saviour to be a sinner in any sense, and just as impossible for him to be an utterly self-humbled, self-sacrificial Saviour unless he was mortal.


  74. on July 23, 2008 at 5:20 am Chaka

    Perry Robinson,
    If you really understand what is called ‘the development of doctrine’ you wont say St.Thomas Aquinas in a strict sense deny the doctrine of the IC.Look for example at the doctrine of the Trinity.Before its formal definition in the year 325 AD,all the Church authors who spoke about that doctrine admitted that the Father is God,the Son is God,and the Holy Spirit is God.But when it came to the part where they wanted to explain the relation of the Father with Son or the Father with the Holy Spirit or the Son With the Holy Spirit,some of them like St.Justin Martyr,Origen,St.Hippolytus,Tertullian e.t.c held inadequate theories which sort of imply subordinationism. But this doesnt mean those men denied the doctrine of the Trinity.No they believed in it but fell short in trying to formulate a precise doctrine about it.The same with the doctrine of the IC.Before a precise doctrine about it was formulated,all the Scholastics theologians who spoke about that doctrine admitted that the Theotokos was free from sin[original/actual].But when it came to the part where they wanted to explain the exert time she was redeemed,some of them like St.Thomas Aquinas,St.Bernard e.t.c held inadequate theories which sort of imply that she was redeemed in her mothers womb after her conception.But this doesnt mean those men denied the doctrine of the IC.No they believed in it but fell short in trying to formulate a precise doctrine about it.


  75. on July 23, 2008 at 7:42 am Fr Paul

    Photius
    I am endulging in voluntary understatement when I say that it is speculative recklessness to say that Christ had a corrupted human nature. Fr Kirby points out the ambiguity of this statement. If you are, as I suspect, seeking to apply as far as possibke the principle of “to aproslépton atherapeuton”, that what is not assumed is not healed, and to push as far as possible the consequences of Christ’s consubstantiality with us (which is entirely laudable and necessary), then it seems to me that you are making a category error: the corruption of a nature is not a substantial part of that nature but an accident (if you will pardon the aristotelian language) which tends to its dissolution. Christ’s incorrupt nature is no more an obstacle to His complete consubstantiality with us than His having two legs prevents his being consubstantial with those who have only one.

    The fact is that Christ took on our nature, which is in fact existentially corrupt, but which can never be essentially corrupt because its corruption consists precisely in what is contrary to its God-given nature. The healing of our nature in every one of its faculties and ages involves precisely its being “wielded” (if that seems too Nestorian a concept, sorry…I am searching for a better) by the Word of God.

    It seems to me appropriate that the perfection of the Redeemer be mirrored perfectly in one of the Redeemed. That is the essence of the IC. Lossky says, in a beautiful passage in his Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church (p. 190 in the French edition - the only one I have to hand. Ch. 9 near the end), that the Theotokos is the hypostasis wherein the Church is perfectly realized on this side of the eschaton, and that “if she submits herself to the conditions of human life even to accepting death, this is in virtue of her perfect will, in which she was reproducing the voluntary kenosis of her Son”.

    This does not of course necessitate absolutely the IC, let alone prove it, since it is conceivable that this perfection was given at some point after conception, as Aquinas and others point out. Lossky himself of course does not accept the IC. The passage I have quoted does, however, like so many other texts of byzantine theologians