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More on the Immaculate Conception in Eastern Orthodoxy »

On Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception

July 20, 2008 by Irenaeus

Not all [modern] Orthodox theologians deny [the Immaculate Conception], though some do very explicitly deny it, thereby illustrating the different development which took place in the West and left the East comparatively unaffected. The development of an explicit doctrine of the Immaculate Conception originated in the Pelagian denial of original sin, which denial forced Latin theology to consider the nature of original sin, and hence to formulate more explicitly some of the relations between nature and grace in a way which Orthodox theology was not forced to do.

The sinlessness of the Theotokos, her closeness to her Son, her absolute accord all through her life with all the designs of her Son, her singular place in the economy of salvation – all this was and is common to Greeks and Latins alike. Common, too, was the belief that Mary was redeemed by her Son and redeemed in a most singular way. Mary as the second Eve was not a concept that arose in the West, but in the East – at least as far as we know; Mary as the type of the Church is to be found equally among Greek theologians and among Latin, and the Orthodox hold strongly that the Church is without sin, however much sin there may be in the members of the Church.

But the Latins, having had to deal with Pelagius’ denial of any original sin at all, had to analyze the notion of original sin more explicitly than the Orthodox; and thus the Latins came to see more universally than the Greeks that Mary’s singular privileges, as revealed in the Scriptures and the Church [Tradition], carried the implication of total exemption from the common sinful inheritance of the rest of men. The Orthodox, of course, hold strongly to the doctrine of original sin and to the privileges of the Mother of God; but they did not so early or so clearly connect the two.

I conjecture that those Orthodox who deny the Immaculate Conception may be under the impression that exemption from sin implies either that Mary did not need redemption, or else that exemption from sin carried with it exemption from the natura phthora, corruption in the wide sense, which is the natural lot of all men save only the God-man.

Professor Jean Meyendorff thinks that the Latin doctrine of original sin involves some responsibility, meriting a punishment, on the part of all men, and that exemption from this responsibility involves exemption from all “corruption” and hence exemption from death. The Orthodox doctrine, he says, of original sin involves a certain subjection, or even servitude, to the devil, who exerts a usurped, unjust, and deadly tyranny. Hence all men “inherit corruption and death and all commit sin.” But Mary, being born by natural generation of Joachim and Anne, was mortal, and her corporal glorification came only after her death. Hence he objects to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

But the Catholic doctrine of original sin does not involve any responsibility for the actual sin of Adam. Sin is spiritual disorder. If it is personal sin, then the person is responsible for the disorder; but if it is original sin, then the originator of the race, and not the individual person, is responsible for the disorder. The spiritual disorder, which is signified by original sin, involves a privation of that original holiness and rightness in which God created man; it involves too, in the normal way, that subjection to the evil one of which Professor Meyendorff speaks; and it involves bodily corruption and death.

Christ was exempt from all sin, and from all spiritual subjection to the evil one; but he was not exempt from death, for he died, and by his death we live. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the acts of Joachim and Anne; it only means that God exempted the future Mother of his Son from the spiritual disorder which leads all ordinary men to actual sin. Mary was born mortal, a true child of our race in that her natural lot was death. She was the second Eve, and it was precisely her immaculateness which, by God’s unmerited, spontaneous gift, prepared her for the fiat through which God sent his Son to be the second Adam, head of the new race, born of a sinless Mother.

On the subject of the Mother of God, I think Latins and Orthodox have the same mind, though perhaps language may sometimes be misleading.

– Bernard Leeming, SJ.

From “Orthodox-Catholic Relations” in Rediscovering Eastern Christendom, E.J.B. Frye and A.H. Armstrong (Darton, Longman and Todd, 1963), pp. 42-43.

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Posted in dogma, East/West, Mary, Quotes, Soteriology, Theology | 131 Comments

131 Responses

  1. on July 20, 2008 at 11:38 pm Fr Paul

    Quite simply the best brief comment I have read on the “difference” between Catholics and Orthodox on the sinlessness of the Mother of God. Thank you Eirenikon.

    Leeming may, however, be a bit over-confident on the supposed superiority of the Latin (Augustinian) view of Original Sin. I myself need to do more thionking and reading on the “reatus culpae” (i.e. “original guilt) and it’s dogmatic status. If you don’t believe in “original guilt”, – and I’m not SURE that you have to as a Catholic – then the theological expression of the DEFINITION of the Immaculate Conception becomes not false, but simply meaningless. This does not mean that the dogma itself is either false or meaningless. Distinguishing between the content of a dogma and its (historically determined) theological expression is of the essence of all hermeneutic of dogmatic formulae.

    I would be interested in the comments of Orthodox readers (preferably not from those with side-lines in Nazi flying saucers). I was bemused and troubled some time ago to read Olivier Clément (I’ve lost the exact refrence, alas) saying that Mary was only sanctified at the Annunciation. This is not the Patristic consensus (East and West) as I have understood it. But it’s late, and I don’t have my library to hand, so I can’t substantiate what I write. Who can help?


  2. on July 21, 2008 at 12:18 am diane

    Viva the Immaculata!`


  3. on July 21, 2008 at 12:22 am Eirenikon Editor

    Father Paul,

    It’s been a little while since I last checked it, but I recall that Casimir Kucharek’s The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St John Chrysostom (Allendale, NJ: Alleluia Press, 1971) has some good historical information on Eastern views of the Immaculate Conception. Tomorrow I’ll take a little trip to the library and post an excerpt on the blog.


  4. on July 21, 2008 at 4:20 am Pontificator

    The question “What is the core doctrine that the 19th century definition is seeking to express?” is quite interesting and important, I think. I agree with Fr Paul that Catholic dogma does not require one to assert “original guilt,” at least as this is popularly understood, by both Catholics and non-Catholics alike. One notes that both the Catechism and JPII go to great lengths to distance the dogma from the notion that mankind is punished because God holds us culpable for Adam’s sin (see my series on original sin).

    Does the IC dogma represent an irreconcilable difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Must it represent an irreconcilable difference? Is Orthodoxy dogmatically committed to the proposition that the Virgin Mary was devoid of the Holy Spirit at her conception and thus a child of wrath and alienated from God?

    As Lemming notes, Catholicism and Orthodoxy both agree that the Theotokos was not protected from corruption and death. In this sense she shares in the sinful lot of man. Must Orthodoxy go the further step and insist that she committed personal sin?

    Can Orthodoxy accept the proposition that from the beginning of her conception, the Thetokos was was possessed by the Spirit that she was in the process of theosis? And would such a position satisfy the Catholic dogma?


  5. on July 21, 2008 at 4:36 am Ad Orientem

    To be honest, I have always seen the IC as a secondary (though not unimportant) point of difference between Rome and Orthodoxy. If the really serious issues (Grace & Ecclesiology, esp. with respect to the Papacy) can be resolved, this one will fall into place in due course.

    ICXC
    John


  6. on July 21, 2008 at 12:09 pm diane

    James Likoudis observes that, in 19th-century Russia, there were entire confraternities devoted to defending the doctrine of the IC to the death. Clearly, therefore, IMHO, there is nothing to prevent Orthodox from accepting the IC…and, in fact, from what I hear, some do.

    I understand, also, that the hardening of the Orthodox position contra the IC has been grounded more in polemics than in historical Orthodox doctrine. After all, it is arguably the Patristic East, more than the West, that developed the doctrine of the all-holiness of the Theotokos in the first place. (Its basis is in the Depositum Fidei, of course, and notably in Scripture.)

    Mr. Likoudis maintains that it was the formal dogmatic definition of the IC in 1854 that prompted the polemical hardening of EO resistance to the IC. What has been hardened can presumably be softened. All the concessions, IOW, need not come from the Catholic side.

    I am not sure what John means by “falling into place.” As the IC happens to be the truth, it is not negotiable. I do not presume to understand all the intricacies of the debate over the precise nature of Original Sin. All I know is that, from the first instant of her conception, by a singular Grace of God, the Theotokos was free from it.

    Diane

    P.S. “Que soy ero l’Immaculada Concepciou.” — Our Lady to Saint Bernadette. Heaven confirmed it; I believe it; over and out. John, I will pray very much for your return to the Catholic fold.

    P.P.S. And would such a position satisfy the Catholic dogma? Beats me! (Not that I’m in any position to be able to answer such a question, anyway!) More to the point, though, I’m not sure I understand exactly what your stated position is, Father Kimel. Isn’t “theosis” a progressive thing? And wasn’t Our Lady free from Original Sin (however we understand it!) in an absolute sense, from the moment of her conception?


  7. on July 21, 2008 at 12:11 pm Fr M Kirby

    This philo-Orthodox presentation of the doctrine is the kind of thing I was trying to do here from an Anglican Catholic perspective:

    http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2005/12/immaculate-conception-of-our-lady.html

    Similarly, I defended the doctrine, again working from a less Augustinian perspective, here in comments:

    http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2008/07/immaculate-conception-of-our-lady.html

    However, I have used the word corruption to mean the moral corruption often called concupiscence, which is not how it is used in this post.

    Could someone please explain to me why it is constantly asserted that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on the Augustinian doctrine of “Original Guilt” when the latter term is not in the official definition? The word “stain” is used, but what is to prevent us taking that in an ontological rather than legal sense? And given that the real Eastern consensual position is that Mary committed no actual sin at all (which is why she is uniquely called immaculate and all-holy), how could it be inconsistent with the Eastern tradition to found that unique mode of life on a unique ontological basis, consonant both with the East’s very ontic view of salvation and the ecumenically accepted need for grace as the basis of all human righteousness?


  8. on July 21, 2008 at 2:05 pm Photios Jones

    “Mary was born mortal, a true child of our race in that her natural lot was death.”

    How can Mary’s natural lot be “death” if she was born immaculate and exempt from original sin?

    “Can Orthodoxy accept the proposition that from the beginning of her conception, the Thetokos was was possessed by the Spirit that she was in the process of theosis?”

    No. Because the process of theosis involves doing something. Recapitulation. At the moment of one’s conception, you haven’t done anything. There is no formation of habit.

    Secondly, the divine subsists in us naturally as St. Maximus says, which makes the IC superflous in a sense. What makes the divine active or energetic is when we recapitulate the works of Christ. Starting with our baptism or with an active faith in adults.


  9. on July 21, 2008 at 3:23 pm diane

    How can Mary’s natural lot be “death” if she was born immaculate and exempt from original sin?

    By a singular Grace of God. :-)

    As those apophatic nuns used to tell us, “It’s a mystery.”

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

    Diane


  10. on July 21, 2008 at 4:00 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    Did you read what the question stated? By your answer, it was by a singular act of grace, by God, that Mary has her ‘natural’ lot of Death. This is not what the Roman Catholic view is or you are just not reading the question. I’ll assume the latter since I think you do understand what Rome teaches on this. The Roman Catholic view is that she was exempt from the “stain” of original sin by a singular act of grace. My question deals with the *logical* outcome, continuity, and soundness of the view. If she is exempt from the stain, what is the *stain* of original sin? If it’s concupiscense, what is concupiscence rooted in? And how can this *corruption* be divorced from the corruption that is *death* since that is the very root of the instability for Adam and Eve’s subsequent posterity?

    Notice that my question doesn’t deal with Russia or what some Orthodox might have held to, but rather if it is theologically sound in the first place. As a side note, those historical contingencies beg the question for me, because I believe Russia in the 19th century was captive to Western categories, sophiology, and other non-Orthodox world views.

    Photios


  11. on July 21, 2008 at 6:11 pm Ad Orientem

    Diane,
    Thank you for your prayers. I am already a member of The Orthodox Catholic Church.

    Yours in ICXC
    John


  12. on July 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm Edward De Vita

    “No. Because the process of theosis involves doing something. Recapitulation. At the moment of one’s conception, you haven’t done anything. There is no formation of habit.”

    Photios,
    Please explain a bit further. It doesn’t seem to me that one has “done anything” at the moment of one’s baptism either, if that occurs at infancy. So where is the formation of habit there?

    “If she is exempt from the stain, what is the *stain* of original sin? If it’s concupiscense, what is concupiscence rooted in? And how can this *corruption* be divorced from the corruption that is *death* since that is the very root of the instability for Adam and Eve’s subsequent posterity?”

    The so-called “stain” of original sin is the lack of sanctifying grace, i.e., of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The IC doctrine simply states that the Holy Mother of God was filled with this grace from the moment of her conception, much as a newborn child is filled with grace at the moment of baptism. The doctrine does not deny that she had to cooperate with grace in order to increase in holiness and favour with God.
    None of this implies in any way that she did not inherit the corruption of death. anymore than the sinlessness of our Lord from his very conception negated the corruption of his human nature.
    Just as the sacrament of holy baptism gives us divine grace without immediately destroying our mortality, why should the reception of divine grace at the very moment of conception be any different?

    Ed


  13. on July 21, 2008 at 6:21 pm diane

    Just as the sacrament of holy baptism gives us divine grace without immediately destroying our mortality, why should the reception of divine grace at the very moment of conception be any different?

    Eggzackly.


  14. on July 21, 2008 at 6:23 pm diane

    John / Ad Orientem: I think you know what I meant. ;)


  15. on July 21, 2008 at 6:23 pm Eirenikon Editor

    Dear all – I would turn your attention to comment #7 by Father Kirby, which I just rescued from the spam filter.


  16. on July 21, 2008 at 6:25 pm Eirenikon Editor

    OK, folks, can’t we all pray for each other’s conversions privately? :-)


  17. on July 21, 2008 at 6:29 pm Ad Orientem

    Photios,
    I have noticed a tendency of late among those desiring some Orthodox confirmation for whatever position they are espousing to quote (often selectively) the opinions of certain Orthodox personages, sometimes of high dignity, and ignore the overwhelming disagreement from the rest of the Orthodox world. This has been seen in a number of threads recently. In any case I think the issue of the IC remains subordinate to the more important issues of Grace and Ecclesiology, as I noted in my above comment.

    Your observations are of course (as usual) right on target.

    How could Mary have died if she was preserved from original sin? Fr. Leeming’s article does not provide an answer which would satisfy the vast majority of the world’s Orthodox including me. But rather more importantly he fails to address the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death. Since the Dormition of the Theotokos is commemorated in one of the Great Feasts of the Church (it was once so in the West too) this would seem to suggest a serious inconsistency of belief which needs to be addressed as a starting point.

    Given the more or less universal acceptance of the Dormition of the Mother of God in Orthodoxy, its prominent place in or liturgics, and its acceptance by the Fathers I think one could fairly say this is accepted as being a nonnegotiable article of faith for us. Thus the question is; does the Roman Catholic Church teach that the Virgin Mary died a natural death? Inquiring minds want to know.

    ICXC
    John


  18. on July 21, 2008 at 6:36 pm Eirenikon Editor

    John,

    How do you know that “the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death”? Are you referring to scientific data, or to a personal impression based on anecdotal evidence?

    My impression (certainly not scientific) up until now has been that most Catholic theologians believe that Our Lady died a natural death. Leeming, for example, takes this for granted and doesn’t even mention the possibility that she did not die before being assumed into heaven.

    The Roman Catholic Church, of course, does not bind the faithful to believe either way.


  19. on July 21, 2008 at 7:02 pm Ad Orientem

    Eirenikon,
    You make a very good point in drawing a distinction which I failed to note. Catholic theologians (at least the more orthodox ones) are often at odds with the those in the pews. An excellent example of this is the rather convoluted position which Rome has adopted in an effort to make the filioque Orthodox. But of course these fine theological distinctions from people like Mike Liccione (whom I hold in very high regard) generally don’t make it down to the ordinary folks at the 11AM Mass at St. Somebody’s. (Which is one of my main hang ups with the filioque. No matter how the theologians parse its meaning the fact is that ordinary churchgoers read “and from the Son…” and naturally assume a double procession. Lex Orandi Lex Credendi and all that. But I digress.)

    Your point is a good one because it raises two questions which are interconnected. What does Rome teach? And what do the faithful believe?

    You correctly (I think) observe that Rome has left this matter open. Thus in the eyes of the Holy See it is theologuman. I can live with that as a starting point But has the Catholic sensus fidei given a powerful indicator of the direction of opinion? My observations are mainly anecdotal but I haven’t met many lay Catholics (or even clergy) who hold to the Orthodox position on this. If there are others who have had a different experience I would be very interested to hear from them. I would also love to see a poll on this subject among the Catholic laity.

    ICXC
    John


  20. on July 21, 2008 at 7:05 pm diane

    How do you know that “the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death”?

    I wondered the same thing. This seems to be a common Orthodox claim; leastwise this is not the first time I’ve encountered it. I was told the same thing some time ago on an Orthodox list. I responded, “No we don’t.” To which I was told: “Yes, you do.” Apparently our Orthodox brethren know better what Catholics believe than we Catholics do. ;)

    For the record: Every Catholic I know and have ever known has assumed that the Theotokos did indeed die a natural death. But hey, what do I know? I’ve only been a Catholic for the better part of 57 years. ;)

    Diane

    P.S. Apologies for publicly praying for John. :D Technically my intention was for his reversion, not conversion, because (I believe, if I’m not mistaken) he used to be Catholic. (As in united with the pope.)


  21. on July 21, 2008 at 7:06 pm Photios Jones

    “Please explain a bit further. It doesn’t seem to me that one has “done anything” at the moment of one’s baptism either, if that occurs at infancy. So where is the formation of habit there?”

    Ed,
    I would argue that this is not a proper analogue, because 1) one could take Luther’s view that infants have a natural desire for baptism. In other words, the desire of God is rooted in the nature (per Maximus), in which infants have an ineffable manner of expressing. Or 2) Augustine’s view that the Church is the human agency that baptism is performed. Both represent a synergistic process in which the human will is active. Theosis is recapitulational. This the IC undermines.

    Though the fact I’m using a couple of predestinarians here as examples shouldn’t be alarming since the idea can be found in Sts. Gregory Palamas and Maximos: there is a two fold grace that is given in baptism to infants that is of dynamis (potent), but a person must confirm themselves in it to achieve and have theosis, active (energeia). In any manner, the view I take is that theosis must be synergistic, not only the beginning but the end as well. The IC on the other hand is a clear example of Monergism. Mary then becomes the new examplar of the doctrine of predestination.

    Even worse by my lights, if God can predestinate Mary to an immaculate conception, then there’s not reason not to do this to everybody else as well based on the future “merits of Christ.” That sure would save us alot of trouble, least being the problem of evil. I’m not dislodged from my position due to prediletion either, that just moves us to limited atonement and Calvinism.

    “The so-called “stain” of original sin is the lack of sanctifying grace, i.e., of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The IC doctrine simply states that the Holy Mother of God was filled with this grace from the moment of her conception, much as a newborn child is filled with grace at the moment of baptism.”

    Yes I got that part, though some would argue it is concupiscence, but the majority would argue it is the absence of “sanctifying grace.” Anyways, this can’t be a good analogue for comparison since 1) RC theologians don’t think that Mary inherited concupiscence and 2) Concupiscence remains in the baptized per RC sacramental theology.

    This leaves you with an arbitrary notion of what corruptions you allow Mary to inherit and one’s that you do not as a result of the fall. Furthermore, it places Mary in a “middle” way position between the humanity before the fall and after the fall. Pre-Fallen Adam does not have instability, Mary has some due to death, and the post-lapsarian humanity has the full consequences. Adam was not destined to die and had no concipiscence of the flesh, Mary was destined to die but had no propensity to sin, and the rest of Adam’s descendants have both.

    “None of this implies in any way that she did not inherit the corruption of death.”

    No Ed, the argument is that she ought to *not inherit* it if she has the integral unity of grace and nature without first falling into the “stain.” There’s no logical basis to assert that she would inherit death whatsoever, other than scientific observation of the fallen world, but I take that more to mean that the doctrine is false and illogical.

    Photios


  22. on July 21, 2008 at 7:06 pm diane

    For the record, John: Every Catholic I have ever known in the pews has assumed that the Theotokos died a natural death.

    Just sayin’. ;)

    Diane


  23. on July 21, 2008 at 7:10 pm diane

    There’s no logical basis to assert that she would inherit death whatsoever….

    How non-apophatic of you. ;) I thought it was the Calvinists who were so big on airtight logic. I was always told that you Orthodox were much keener on Mystery. In fact, I was led to believe y’all had cornered the market on it.

    Very interesting. :D

    Diane


  24. on July 21, 2008 at 7:23 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    I’m using the rhetoric of philosophy to dislodge the position, because I believe the doctrine has its *conceptual roots* in philosophy. Perhaps you need to re-read the very first section of the Summa Theologiae of Thomas Aquinas that “sacred doctrine” is a *science.* This is somewhat the basis of when philosophy changes, your theology has to “grow” with it or dialogue with it: the re-discovery of Aristotle in the 13th century or modern philosophy in the 20th century (Vatican II).

    Orthodox theology on the other hand is not based on philosophy nor is the conceptual content of philosophy theology’s hand-maiden.

    Photios


  25. on July 21, 2008 at 8:18 pm Fr Paul

    The idea that the Mother of God did not die is, to my knowledge, taught by no significant Catholic theologian today or in living memory, nor have I ever heard it maintained by an ordinary Catholic “in the pew”. I do not see how her mortality is any more incompatible with her being deified from conception than the fact of Christ’s death is incompatible with his Deity. Christ died by a divine condescension to realise the dispensation of our salvation. The holiness of the Theotokos is – like that of any other Christian – but a participation in His, the realisation in her of His image (but in her case alone it is a perfect participation and realisation). Her dying is a fitting manifestation of the fact that her deification is utterly dependant on His Paschal Mystery.

    Arguments based on what these “ordinary Catholics” believe are, I think not particularly helpful. In my experience, they are not usually inclined to speculate about theological matters at all, and certainly do not usually have opinions about the Filioque or the details of the manner of Our Lady’s passing to heavenly glory.

    Before, however, Orthodox polemicists leap on this and taunt us with the ignorance of ordinary Catholics, they should try living in an Orthodox country, and outside the rarefied atmosphere of a North American convert culture. If I were to go out right now into the street and ask passers by (95% of whom will be Orthodox) to give me a resumé of their Church’s teaching on any number of points, I know from experience that most of the replies would deconcert – to say the least – their more sophisticated coreligionists here. I have always been impatient, andhave often expressed my irritation, with Catholic friends and colleagues who gleefully seize upon the popular misconceptions of ordinary believers and use them as a stick to beat Orthodoxy. I know it has been said before, but I wish more Orthodox contributors to our debates would cease to compare the Platonic ideal of the Orthodox Church with the messy reality of the Catholic Church. I will refrain from seeking to catalogue the absurdities of some popular Orthodox religiosity in Greece. In any case, someone could no doubt be found who would blithely explain how they are the result of Western influence…


  26. on July 21, 2008 at 8:19 pm Edward De Vita

    “I would argue that this is not a proper analogue, because 1) one could take Luther’s view that infants have a natural desire for baptism. In other words, the desire of God is rooted in the nature (per Maximus), in which infants have an ineffable manner of expressing. Or 2) Augustine’s view that the Church is the human agency that baptism is performed. Both represent a synergistic process in which the human will is active. Theosis is recapitulational. This the IC undermines.”

    If infants have a natural desire for baptism then so does the child just conceived, unless you want to argue that there is some substantial difference between the later infant and the conceptus.
    The problem with the 2nd view is that it is a rather weird view of synergy, unless you believe that my being divinized can occur through your synergy. But let me ask you this. When the human nature of our Lord was sanctified (from the very moment of His conception) through being joined to the Person of the Divine Word, where was the synergy there? What role did human agency play in this?
    Besides, what makes you think there wasn’t synergy in the second sense. Our Lady’s parents were, by all accounts, very holy. Surely, they desired the fullness of grace for their daughter. If you’re going to hold out for vicarious synergy, why can’t her parents count? Or, better still, why can’t Israel itself count as such, since She awaited in faithful expectation, the coming of the Messiah and the mother of the Messiah?

    “1) RC theologians don’t think that Mary inherited concupiscence and 2) Concupiscence remains in the baptized per RC sacramental theology.
    This leaves you with an arbitrary notion of what corruptions you allow Mary to inherit and one’s that you do not as a result of the fall.”

    The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will. But it is not some arbitrary exception. The reason for holding to Mary’s freedom from concupiscence is that it is viewed as not compatible with her “fullness” of grace. Hence, it is not, strictly speaking, linked to the IC, but rather, to the notion of a plenitude of grace, higher than any received by any other creature. Any of the consequences of the fall that do not bear any relation to moral imperfection, i.e., death, infirmity, weakness, etc…. are compatible with the IC and the fullness of grace.

    The positive reason for holding to the IC is found in the mystery of the Church of which our Lady is the type, the New Eve, who, through her obedience, undoes what Eve did through her disobedience. The Church is, in her very nature, holy and immaculate, without spot or wrinkle. Moreover, the Church is such from the very moment of her existence. But Mary prefigures the Church in her own person. She displayed in her person during the course of her life on earth what will only be revealed of the Church at the end of time. This is what modern biblical exegetes call “realized eschatology.”

    Ed


  27. on July 21, 2008 at 8:34 pm diane

    In my experience, they [ordinary Catholics] are not usually inclined to speculate about theological matters at all, and certainly do not usually have opinions about the Filioque or the details of the manner of Our Lady’s passing to heavenly glory.[/i]

    You can say that again, Father! And thereby hangs a tale. :)


  28. on July 21, 2008 at 9:40 pm Photios Jones

    “If infants have a natural desire for baptism then so does the child just conceived,”

    I don’t think this will work, first the ordo is desire and then grace applied whereas in the IC, there is NO MOMENT of time at which the Virgin had original sin (loss of sanctifying grace). Your analogue would work better for John the Baptist leaping in the womb perhaps (as a theologoumenon). The latter has synergism the IC does not.

    “unless you want to argue that there is some substantial difference between the later infant and the conceptus.”

    I think I addressed this above.

    “Our Lady’s parents were, by all accounts, very holy. Surely, they desired the fullness of grace for their daughter. If you’re going to hold out for vicarious synergy, why can’t her parents count?”

    We have no witness saying that this is certain. First, union of God is something personal has things that are in existence, not things in non-existence. For them to even have that desire, they have to have a conception of that desire. Second, they have to be doing the intention of Christ, something that is sacramental. My baptism IS Christ’s baptism. It is Recapitulational. Though, Mary’s parents were synergistic in bringing Mary into existence, I don’t see how this is synergy for Mary’s theosis. God is the sole actor in her being exempt from original sin.

    You’re right that vicarious synergism is a little weaker and somewhat awkward, this was Augustine’s argument for synergism in infants, which he obviously subsumed under a strong predestinarianism that I don’t.

    What St. Maximos argues that what infants are given in there baptism is of potentia, that can only be made *active* through employment of the will to attain theosis.

    I accept all 3 glosses (and some better for others), but what I find appalling and predestinarian is the IC, something I cannot accept. To the point, that I might as well give up the ghost and be a predelectionist or maybe just a Neoplatonist. So, far from being an argument for needless controversey, I have real existential problems with the doctrine.

    “But let me ask you this. When the human nature of our Lord was sanctified (from the very moment of His conception) through being joined to the Person of the Divine Word, where was the synergy there? What role did human agency play in this?”

    This is Augustine’s argument in Predestination of the Saints. Christ is the most illustrious example of predestination and this takes place *by grace.* This is also the quintessential proof text of the Spanish Adoptionists. Let me explain. What you’ve done in this passage, by means of the Augustinian ordo theologiae, is that you now have a predestinating Son and a predestined human nature. You either divide Christ, Nestorian style, and see Christ as the predestined man or you have a divine attribute of *predestination* between God and Jesus Christ, which Karl Barth took to be Arian, because there are no interposition of divine operations *between* the Persons. Do you see the problem with this? The problem ends up being the very order and categories in which these things are being addressed (and not necessarily the question itself). I recommend you review the Spanish Adoptionist controversey or even Karl Barth.

    “The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will.”

    I’ve never heard that before. If your *exempt* from the *stain* or you lack the absence of being full of grace, then this is inherently deductive. I’ve never seen this gloss before. Perhaps you can give me a reference here.

    “Any of the consequences of the fall that do not bear any relation to moral imperfection, i.e., death, infirmity, weakness, etc…. are compatible with the IC and the fullness of grace.”

    This is a re-statement of your conclusion. You need to connect the dots of how this follows.

    Photios


  29. on July 21, 2008 at 10:04 pm Ad Orientem

    Given the universal disagreement with my anecdotal experience I am inclined to concede that I was mistaken in my assumptions.

    ICXC
    John


  30. on July 21, 2008 at 10:10 pm diane

    Thank you, John! It takes a big person to admit being wrong. And it’s rather rare on the Internet, too. :)


  31. on July 21, 2008 at 10:12 pm diane

    Could someone please explain to me why it is constantly asserted that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on the Augustinian doctrine of “Original Guilt” when the latter term is not in the official definition? The word “stain” is used, but what is to prevent us taking that in an ontological rather than legal sense?

    Great questions, Father Kirby!


  32. on July 21, 2008 at 10:40 pm Pontificator

    “The notion that Mary was free from concupiscence is not a doctrine of the Church but it is a common opinion, a theologoumenon, if you will.”

    I’ve never heard that before. If your *exempt* from the *stain* or you lack the absence of being full of grace, then this is inherently deductive. I’ve never seen this gloss before. Perhaps you can give me a reference here.

    Edward is quite correct. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not explicitly address the question of the Blessed Virgin’s freedom from concupiscence, as acknowledged by John Paul II. You should know this, Daniel.

    This isn’t a matter of logic! Rightly or wrongly, the Catholic Church refuses to attribute sin to the Blessed Virgin Mary. She insists that from the beginning of her existence, by the grace of Christ, Mary enjoyed a life of nonalienation from the Triune God. Is the Orthodox Church committed to the sinfulness of the Theotokos?

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Catholic polemics, the Orthodox Church would unreservedly answer, NO!


  33. on July 21, 2008 at 10:43 pm diane

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Catholic polemics, the Orthodox Church would unreservedly answer, NO!

    Precisely James Likoudis’s point, when he cited examples of 19th-century Orthodox devotion to the IC.

    Thank you, Father Kimel.


  34. on July 21, 2008 at 11:37 pm Photios Jones

    “Rightly or wrongly, the Catholic Church refuses to attribute sin to the Blessed Virgin Mary.”

    Al, the blessed virgin does not inherit sin, and here’s the kicker for you: nobody does.

    “The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not explicitly address the question of the Blessed Virgin’s freedom from concupiscence.”

    Okay, if you want to go that route of explicitness, that’s fine, but I’ve never seen a theologian deny that she had concupiscence. So I think Ed is giving short sight to something that is a little more certain than implied.

    Let’s read what your link states:

    Pius IX’s definition refers only to the freedom from original sin and **does not explicitly** include the freedom from concupiscence. **Nevertheless,** Mary’s complete preservation from every stain of sin **also has as a consequence** her freedom from concupiscence, a disordered tendency which, according to the Council of Trent, comes from sin and inclines to sin (DS 1515). 3. Granted “by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God”, this preservation from original sin is an absolutely gratuitous divine favour, which Mary received at the first moment of her existence.

    It is never been taught to me that the former didn’t imply the latter. In fact, every major theologian I’ve read has taught what I just stated. This is exactly what JPII does here, by deductive reasoning she’s exempt from concupiscence. Why? Because concupiscence proceeds FROM sin as a consequence thereof. Every Catholic theologian I know would be astonished to think that Mary inherited concupiscence.

    “Is the Orthodox Church committed to the sinfulness of the Theotokos?”

    No the Orthodox Church has no committment either way, and that’s part of the problem that you don’t seem to understand. You don’t make a doctrine a dogma that’s HIGHLY speculative in nature. That’s making dogma something beyond revelation and a product of reason.

    Where do I stand personally? I believe Mary was a sinner just like everyone of us. And I have good company, Chrysostom and Basil. Big names there Al. I join with them that whatever slight failings of sin she had, she was as in need of the same grace of the Redeemer in the same fashion that I am. As far as the Economy and her Vocation she is more loved than me just as Jacob is more loved than Esau as being the blood line for the progenitor of the Messiah. But with respect to her relation to God regarding salvation, she is loved no more than me, no more than you, no more than the rest of the common human stock that come forth from Adam. You make God the predestinarian of Calvin all under the cover of the Blessed Virgin and the IC. Well let me tell you, we that are thinking people object, there is something in the human spirit that will always object to in this predilection. If someone wants to believe the IC as a pios opinion, go for it, I think its madness, but I wouldn’t break communion over it. But Rome has done something different. She’s shut off all dialogue in the cover of wanting dialogue so as not to be contradicting the doctrine. She’s dogmatized this view and closed the door no matter how many times and ways you wish to slice it.

    I suspect that in the absence of anti-Orthodox Catholic ecumenism, the Orthodox will have the same answer: we refuse to go beyond and dogmatize speculations.

    Now, do you have answer and argument to the predestinarianism in the IC, or no?

    Photios


  35. on July 22, 2008 at 3:43 am evagrius

    Interesting and confusing arguments all around.

    I’ve always thought of the Immaculate Conception as intimately related to the Annunciation.

    Mary said “Yes”. This “yes” was a free yes, one under no compulsion, delusion, conditioning or habit. That is, it was said without sin.

    It was under the same conditions as Eve’s “Yes” to Satan except that “Yes” became sin since it was a “No” to God.

    After all, one could argue that Eve was also immaculately conceived.


  36. on July 22, 2008 at 4:16 am Edward De Vita

    “I don’t think this will work, first the ordo is desire and then grace applied whereas in the IC, there is NO MOMENT of time at which the Virgin had original sin (loss of sanctifying grace). Your analogue would work better for John the Baptist leaping in the womb perhaps (as a theologoumenon). The latter has synergism the IC does not.”

    Actually, desire is not sufficient for synergism. Desire must lead to acceptance of grace. But acceptance of grace is always contemporaneous with the reception of grace. Hence, the temporal lag that you insist on is unnecessary. Mind you, I don’t really buy this theory at all and I don’t think it really does the job you want it to do. An infant simply cannot accept the grace of baptism. There may be a desire in human nature for God, but since the infant is not consciously aware of this desire, it cannot personally cooperate with God to attain the grace of baptism. Hence, you run the risk of turning synergism into an activity of the nature rather than of the person.

    “What St. Maximos argues that what infants are given in there baptism is of potentia, that can only be made *active* through employment of the will to attain theosis.”

    Catholic theology says nothing different. The baptized individual must cooperate with the grace received in baptism in order to grow into union with God. But I don’t see how this solves the problem you’ve posed of the need for synergy even in infant baptism.

    “What you’ve done in this passage, by means of the Augustinian ordo theologiae, is that you now have a predestinating Son and a predestined human nature. You either divide Christ, Nestorian style, and see Christ as the predestined man or you have a divine attribute of *predestination* between God and Jesus Christ, which Karl Barth took to be Arian, because there are no interposition of divine operations *between* the Persons. Do you see the problem with this?”

    I haven’t even mentioned the word “predestination.” So, I’m rather unclear as to how you get this out of what I said. Do you believe that in assuming our human nature the Word healed that nature? Was there ever a time when the human nature assumed by the Word was not healed? If not, where, on your account, is the synergism to be found? Remember, you’re the one who allowed for synergy to be attributed to the nature rather than to the person.

    “Al, the blessed virgin does not inherit sin, and here’s the kicker for you: nobody does.”

    Interesting. Then what do you make of these words of St. Symeon the New Theologian:

    “That saying that calls no one sinless except God, even though he has lived only one day on earth, does not refer to those who sin personally, because how can a one-day old child sin? But in this is expressed that mystery of our Faith, that human nature is sinful from its very conception. God did not create man sinful, but pure and holy. But since the first-created Adam lost this garment of sanctity, not from any other sin but from pride alone, and became corruptible and mortal, all people also who come from the seed of Adam are participants of the ancestral sin from their very conception and birth. He who has been born in this way, even though he has not yet performed any sin, is already sinful through this ancestral sin.”
    (The Sin of Adam, Homily 37, Ch. 3)

    It would seem that Symeon disagrees with you and holds it to be a mystery of Faith that human nature is sinful from its conception. So, who speaks for Orthodoxy: you or Symeon? I take it you confess the creed every week at Divine Liturgy. When you confess that you believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, do you add the clause “except for infants who have no sin”? The creed certainly makes no such exception.

    Ed


  37. on July 22, 2008 at 9:49 am diane

    evagrius: Of course you are precisely correct re the parallelism between the Old Eve and the New Eve. This, as I’m sure you know far better than I, was a common Patristic theme.


  38. on July 22, 2008 at 9:54 am Fr Paul

    OK. Without wishing – or having the time – to go into the detailed questions raised above, it might be helpful to set out for readers the AUGUSTINIAN teaching on Original Sin (OS henceforth), because this is certainly the theological background to the dogmatic definition.

    What is the consequence of Adam’s sin in all his posterity according to Augustine? It is threefold:

    1) The PRIVATION of superantural (sanctifying) grace and of the preternatural gifts (immortality, integrity etc.)
    2) Concupiscence.
    3) “Reatus culpae”, a juridical term which literally means “being guilty of an offence and liable to punishment” and which I above, for brevity and convenience, called “original guilt”.

    Now, as I said this is the theological background and framework of the definition of the IC, because it was massively dominant in Catholic theoogy in the 19th C. and had been for centuries. It also provides the framework and language of the Tridentine decrees on OS, justification etc. for the same reasons. Does this mean that The notion of “original guilt” is part of Catholic doctrine? I am not sure, but I admit I need to do more work on this.

    As I understand it, Orthodox theolians strenuously object to the notion of a “reatus culpae” in the ancestral sin. I suspect that they are basically right. They tend to concentrate on the privation of the preternatural gifts as being the essence of OS. It is my impression that there is something akin to a privation of sanctifying grace and to concupiscence in the teaching of the Greek Fathers, but of course they don’t use the language of Latin theology. I would like to learn more about what modern Orthodox theologians think of these aspects. This discussion is helping.

    Now, the point has been made that the definition of 1854 does not adress specifically the question of concupiscence. Moreover, since Catholic theology is – now at least – basicaly unanimous in accepting that Mary died (it was fitting that she be conformed in all things to the Paschal Mystery of her Son), it would not seem that she received the preternatural gifts (at least not all of them). So does the IC just mean that she was free from “reatus culpae”?

    Photius and I agree that she was, but Photius thinks that everybody was and I think he is probably right on this. The definition of 1854 speaks of a “singular privilege”. So if (as I suspect) the notion of “original guilt” is not part of Catholic dogma, then either the IC consists in something other than being exempt from it (what I will call its negative import), or (as I said above in post n° 1) it might not in fact have any meaning.

    In fact, many commentators above have pointed out the positive import of the doctrine: Mary was conceived in God’s freindship, and remained absolutely so and absolutely free from sin throughut her life. It seems to me that this is certainly the consensus of the (post-Nicene) Fathers east and West and that it is implicit in the Byzantine liturgical texts which speak of the Theotokos. It certainly does seem that retreat from this on the part of some modern Orthodox theologians is the result of a reaction to the Roman definition.

    Reaction (eg. to arianism) has played an essential role in forming our Creed. I do not, however, think that it has been generally helpful in the context of a divided christendom which accepts the Nicene settlement. It has led to deleterious effects in Catholic theology, whereby we have neglected and indeed almost annihilated some aspects of our own tradition because they were used by the “enemy” (take as an example the suspicion with which the reading of scripture by layfolk was regarded in some Catholic circles after the Reformation). I think that this is what has happened when some Orthodox “defer” the sanctification of the Theotokos to the Annunciation – that they are amputating a part of their own tradition out of a desire to set themselves apart from the West (and what of the meaning of the Feast of her Presentation by the way?) I believe that Damascene – just to take one example – would regard talk of her as a sinner as impiety, just as much as would Augustine. And I will admit that it pains me to read such things from the pen of writers for whom I have a sincere respect.


  39. on July 22, 2008 at 11:22 am Hieromonk Gregory

    I believe Metropolitan Callistos does a fine job when he discusses the development of the IC doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church. Therein he states that the real issue is not about Mary Immaculate but about the nature and definition of Original Sin from an Augustinian rather than from the viewpoint of St. John Cassian. We know that the doctrine of the IC was very much debated by Popes and theologians alike. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholics both agree that Mary, while a part of our sinful race, is the purest of all of God’s people with the exception of Christ Himself. Both Churces have a liturgical celebration of the Conception of the Theotokos by St. Anne in December, just as the Orthodox celebrate the Conception of St. John the Baptist in September, remembering the Gsopel of St. Luke account. Personally I see no problem believing in something akin to the Immaculate Conception; the problem lies in the need or the lack of need in defining it in 19th Century. I agree with a previous writer that this issue is more connected with Papal Supremacy than it is with the sinlessness of the Holy Virgin. Let us give it time for the dialogue to unfold between the 2 churches. Commemorating our all holy, immaculate, most highly blessed, and glorious ever Virgin Mary with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and each other unto Christ Our God.


  40. on July 22, 2008 at 11:24 am Hieromonk Gregory

    Just an aside: I was born on the Feast of the Conception of the Immaculate Theotokos, and ordained a priest on the Conception of St. John the Baptist.


  41. on July 22, 2008 at 11:59 am diane

    Therein he states that the real issue is not about Mary Immaculate but about the nature and definition of Original Sin from an Augustinian rather than from the viewpoint of St. John Cassian.

    Pardon me, but ISTM that even framing the debate in such terms is unnecessarily (and dangerously) ideological and partisan. Should dogma be a matter of Dueling Theologians? Doesn’t the IC transcend both Augustine and Cassian?


  42. on July 22, 2008 at 12:01 pm diane

    BTW, I am also inclined to think that perhaps Father Paul (forgive me, Father!) goes too far in conceding Photios Jones’ points, which (to my mind at least) border on Pelagianism.


  43. on July 22, 2008 at 1:14 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    In fact, Diane, it points out that there was never a consensus on the matter, but remained in the realm of theologoumena until the time of Pio Nono. However, my point was on the various opinions regarding original sin and its consequences, which is the framework of the doctrine of the nature of the conception of the Mother of God. Again popes and theologians defended or fought against the idea; if you need more information seek out some more sources that one can obtain from the internet or from a library. By the way there have been those in the West who accused St. John Cassian of semi-Pelagianism, and others who sided with his theology.


  44. on July 22, 2008 at 1:29 pm diane

    if you need more information seek out some more sources that one can obtain from the internet or from a library.

    This seems to assume that I have never studied the question. Thank you, Hieromonk Gregory, for assuming my ignornce. ;)


  45. on July 22, 2008 at 2:04 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    No Diane it does not, hence the word IF. The point is I know nothing about you , your education and the like. To assume in either direction would indeed be foolish.


  46. on July 22, 2008 at 2:17 pm diane

    Well, assuming my ignorance is a safe assumption…but I’ve read a few things re the IC. ;) Undoubtedly need to read more.

    Sorry for testiness.

    Diane


  47. on July 22, 2008 at 3:32 pm Photios Jones

    “Actually, desire is not sufficient for synergism. Desire must lead to acceptance of grace. But acceptance of grace is always contemporaneous with the reception of grace. Hence, the temporal lag that you insist on is unnecessary. Mind you, I don’t really buy this theory at all and I don’t think it really does the job you want it to do. ”

    Ed,
    You may not think it is a good theory, but I’m committed to maintaining synergism from start to finish on pains of Monotheletism or Monergism. I’m not committed to one theory alone or inflexible about the mechanism if one is better than another. But I’m not satisfied as to what is put forth as a relationship of human and divine as I see it in the IC. This is a clear example of gratia irresistibilis.

    “There may be a desire in human nature for God, but since the infant is not consciously aware of this desire, it cannot personally cooperate with God to attain the grace of baptism.”

    I disagree, this comes very close to seeing personhood or a person as definable by consciousness, something I deny.

    “I haven’t even mentioned the word “predestination.” So, I’m rather unclear as to how you get this out of what I said.”

    I don’t think you have to, the concept was in your writing as you were alluding to an argument knowingly or unknowingly to Augustine in Predestination of the Saints, that Christ’s human nature is the most illustrious example of predestination.

    “Remember, you’re the one who allowed for synergy to be attributed to the nature rather than to the person”

    Absolutely, free choice or synergy is a property of the nature, because it can be said about every person. What is common is of the nature, what is absolutely unique is of the person. This is Maximus Dyothelite Christology.

    As to your quote of Symeon, I’ll have to see the Greek, and see how it is used in context. Maximus uses sin in both a personal sense regarding guilt, and in a wider sense that is natural: corruption. If Symeon is using it in the former sense, he is WRONG. Sin as guilt is personal, not natural. To say a sin nature in sense of guilt, is to confuse person and nature. Since I doubt that Symeon would contradict Byzantine theology as a whole, I quite confident he means sin as corruption. Try reading Maximus on 2 Cor 5:21, which he does not couch Christ’s taking on sin in a legal sense, but an ontological sense.

    On that note, I’m not really moved by spoof texts with out an exegetical analysis or unless you know of a representative work that has analyzed the text in place of your own. Furthermore, to make Symeon say something that both of us would disagree with doesn’t seem to give him a charitable read.

    “When you confess that you believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, do you add the clause “except for infants who have no sin”? The creed certainly makes no such exception.”

    Have you read John Chrysostom on this gloss? The context is “sins.” Plural. There is no plurality of “sins” in infants, so it doesn’t speak to that application. It’s the same with the Psalm text where David was conceived in “sins,” plural, not sin. This is a complete misreading of the text by the Augustinian party. In other words, David was conceived into a world of sins, not that he inherited sin. Pace John Chrysostom.

    Diane,

    I’m not a Pelagian and I’d really question if you could articulate exactly what that thesis is. First, Pelagius thought Death was natural and that Adam and his progenity were destined to die irrespsective if Adam sinned or not. In other words, Pelagius thinks that Death is a property of the nature qua nature. Secondly, Pelagius thinks that grace is simply all the human faculties and there proper use. The Law leads to the example of Christ that everybody can perform.

    My view cuts that off at the knees. The problem of the fall is Death, obviously existentially Pelagius doesn’t see this as much of a problem. No amount of law keeping is going to save you from Death. This is the grace of Christ wrought in the Incarnation. I disagree with Catholicism/Thomism/Arminianism/Molinism, etc. Cassian and Maximus’ view is that you don’t need a *special* act of grace to orient you towards God that the grace of the Incarnation by dint of our consubstantiality hasn’t already done for you. This is the main thesis why Sts. John Cassian and Vincent of Lerins are glossed as “semi-Pelagians.” I put this in quote because this is the Western categorical distinction, and what I take to be the Augustinian party of Fulgentius, Prosper of Aquitaine and other Augustinians, whether they be of the mild or strict variety, and their appropriation of these men as just poor Christology. Furthermore, I really don’t care or have the fear about the person that THAT label is associated with (Pelagius) but the rightness of the ideas expressed. Pelagius was indeed wrong, but equally so was Augustine.

    For further reading on what I think you can either read my paper ‘Synergy in Christ’ on my blog or this paper:

    http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

    Photios


  48. on July 22, 2008 at 3:33 pm Fr Paul

    Diane
    I appreciate your bringing up the point abou Pelagianism – I was considering going further into the relationship between nature and grace but didn’t want to make my post too long or overburden the subject matter. Now that we are approaching the 50-posts mark, I’d like to add just a word on that subject before our long-suffering host brings down his dreaded guillotine!

    I too find Photios dangerously close tp Pelagianism. This might not worry him, because most Orthodox regard it as at best an intra-Western quarrel which doesn’t concern them. But id does worry me, as it worries you.

    I concede two points to Photius: I think that he is probably right (and thus that St Augustine is probably not right) in rejecting the notion that human beings are conceived guilty and deserving punishment (allthough they are most certainly born in sin, for this reality is a multi-faceted phenomenon which exceeds the juridical notions expressed in the phrase “reatus culpae”. I prefer to speak of a wound…); morevover, I think that he is probably right in thinking that Augustine followed his own too inexorable logic and went too far in a predestinarian sense. More on this another time, if God permits…

    This does not stop me regarding myself as an Augustinian, however. The central thrust of Augustine’s theology is that God always has the initiative and the human element always has the character of a response to God’s unmerited gift. I am perfectly happy with talk of synergy and regret that Catholic theologians in the past dismissed this too sniffily and were too quick to talk of semi-Pelagianism (the whole concept of which is historically speaking a dubious postulate at best). I think that the Greek patristic notion of synergy leaves intact the principle I have adumbrated above, viz. of the absolute priority of the divine initiative.

    Thus, I would respond to Photius that the notion that the Theotokos was sinles from the first moment of her human existence is not only not repugnant to a balanced theology of grace and human freedom, but emminently compatible with it and illustrative of it. The notion of synergy comes in when we assert that all her human actions, up to and beyond her fiat at the Annunciation, were freely elicited responses to and under grace.

    My disagreement with Photius (at least if I read him correctly) takes away nothing, however, from the fact that I am broadly sympathetic to many of his points, and that I wish to see Catholic theology engage positively with them. I think also that we Catholics should try to understand and consider sympatheically Orthodox worries about the apropriateness of turning what was previously a matter of theological speculation into a dogma, without there being apparant any pressing need to do so.


  49. on July 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm Fr Paul

    Photius
    while I was writing my last post, and before I posted it, you posted yours. It raises some interesting points which I want to think about, and I will read your paper. For now though, I disagree strongly that Augustine was wrong just as much as Pelagius was. The central thrust of Pelagius’ thougght was way off target; Augutine’s central thrust was correct. It is good that we are talking.


  50. on July 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    Follow this link and read the treatment Fr. Hughes gives on the subject of Original Sin. He is concise and very clear in his presentation.

    http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/2004
    -hughes-sin.php


  51. on July 22, 2008 at 4:02 pm Photios Jones

    “The central thrust of Augustine’s theology is that God always has the initiative and the human element always has the character of a response to God’s unmerited gift.”

    Fr. Paul,
    Here’s where I would dialogue with you with the start of a question: Why would you consider this initiative irrespective of or in abstraction to and not first considering this “preparation for grace” without Christ as the paradigm and starting point? And here I admit I’m being critical of the theological manuals of western historiography that first consider the divine essence, move to consider the attributes of this essence (predestination being one of these attributes), and then we move on to a discussion of the Persons. We don’t get to a discussion of the grace of Christ or the Incarnation until after the general concepts have been established. Thus, the Incarnation is fits under the broader category of Predestination from this perspective. In other words, how can you consider a doctrine of predestination, without first discussing Christ and his Economy? I think this ‘initiative of grace’ is done, and done for every person that will exist, in Christ recapitulating human nature and restoring it: Christ’s trials and renewing all the types of the Old Testament, Israel’s history, Infant for Infants, young man for young men, an Adult for Adults.

    Indeed, from an Orthodox view, the IC is a non-problem, because we would believe the divine subsists in every person: naturally.

    To quote from Maximus Disputation,

    Pyrrhus: Virtues, then, are natural things?

    Maximus: Yes, natural things.

    Pyrrhus: If they be natural things, why do they not exist in all men equally, since all men have an identical nature?

    Maximus: But they do exist equally in all men because of the identical nature!

    Pyrrhus: Then why is there such a great disparity [of virtues] in us?

    Maximus: Because we do not all practice what is natural to us to an equal degree; indeed, if we [all] practiced equally [those virtues] natural to us as we were created to do, then one would be able to perceive one virtue in us all, just as there is one nature [in us all], and “one virtue” would not admit of a “more” or “less.”

    Pyrrhus: If virtue be something natural [to us], and if what is natural to us existeth not through asceticism but by reason of our creation, then why is it that we acquire the virtues, which are natural, with asceticism and labours?

    Maximus: Asceticism, and the toils that go with it, was devised simply in order to ward off deception, which established itself through sensory perception. It is not [as if] the virtues have
    been newly introduced from outside, for they inhere in us from creation, as hath already been said. Therefore, when deception is completely expelled, the soul immediately exhibits the splendor of its natural virtue.

    Photios


  52. on July 22, 2008 at 4:04 pm Carlos Palad

    That Mary did not die a natural death, but was simply assumed into heaven, was a widespread teaching in Catholic circles in the first half of the twentieth century, especially in Hispanic areas as well as in the Franciscan Order. This is the reason why Munificentissimus Deus carefully refrains from speaking of the natural death of the Virgin Mary.


  53. on July 22, 2008 at 4:09 pm diane

    I prefer to speak of a wound…); morevover, I think that he is probably right in thinking that Augustine followed his own too inexorable logic and went too far in a predestinarian sense. More on this another time, if God permits….

    I could not agree more, Father!

    Here’s hoping our gracious host does not shut down this combox. :) Perhaps, in that case, we could move the discussion to the other more recent post re the IC.


  54. on July 22, 2008 at 4:12 pm Photios Jones

    Heiromonk Gregory,

    Very good article. Quite sound in my opinion.

    Photios


  55. on July 22, 2008 at 4:16 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    LOL. I am sure that Fr. Anthony would be pleased to hear of your reaction.


  56. on July 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm Photios Jones

    Fr. Paul,

    “The central thrust of Pelagius’ thougght was way off target”

    Yes and no from my perspective. His anthropology is way off in considering what is natural to man qua nature. His view of death is very secular in that regard. However the fact that he wants to think that grace is natural, I think he is moving in the right direction. The problem I see with this is that he doesn’t see human nature in a wider cosmological sense as having a divine component. When I say that Augustine is equally wrong, I mean simply to say that I think he equally confuses person and nature in an opposite direction of Pelagius in his anthropology.

    Photios


  57. on July 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm Photios Jones

    Hieromonk Gregory,

    Why would he be surprised? It’s just good ol’ standard doctrine presented in a concise manner. Good stuff that I cut my teeth on back in the day I was examining these issues for the first time.

    Photios


  58. on July 22, 2008 at 4:55 pm john di

    “…What makes the divine active or energetic is when we recapitulate the works of Christ. Starting with our baptism or with an active faith in adults…”

    Since the Incarnation began at the Annunciation—at Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb—why doesn’t recapitulation start at conception? And if it does start at conception, why can’t the recapitulative graces given to Mary be those of the IC?


  59. on July 22, 2008 at 5:06 pm Hieromonk Gregory

    Photios,

    The comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.


  60. on July 22, 2008 at 5:17 pm Photios Jones

    Heiromonk Gregory,
    My bad, I thought there might’ve been something in there I missed. Thanks though!


  61. on July 22, 2008 at 5:41 pm Photios Jones

    “Since the Incarnation began at the Annunciation—at Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb—why doesn’t recapitulation start at conception?”

    Well I think it does with regard to Christ, but in my view Christ receives a corrupted humanity and starts to heal it, not just in becoming Incarnate but in all His recapitulatory works. And, that the basis of our redemption is Him *receiving* that corrupted humanity. He gets this corrupted humanity from Mary.


  62. on July 22, 2008 at 8:35 pm john di

    Photios,

    When you say “Christ receives a corrupted humanity”, what does that mean? Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?

    Thanks


  63. on July 22, 2008 at 8:43 pm Photios Jones

    “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection.

    No his Person is not corrupted.


  64. on July 22, 2008 at 11:21 pm evagrius

    “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s (sic) full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection.

    No his Person is not corrupted.”

    Well…there goes the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.

    I guess you’ll agree then with those who argue that it’s a post-Resurrection story.

    Loved the last part- so, there’s the “Person” of Christ and then there’s His “corrupted human nature” somewhat like an appendage that’s being healed.


  65. on July 23, 2008 at 1:47 am Edward De Vita

    “You may not think it is a good theory, but I’m committed to maintaining synergism from start to finish on pains of Monotheletism or Monergism. I’m not committed to one theory alone or inflexible about the mechanism if one is better than another. But I’m not satisfied as to what is put forth as a relationship of human and divine as I see it in the IC. This is a clear example of gratia irresistibilis.”

    Photios,

    I am not unsympathetic with your project of trying to maintain synergy in the whole process of salvation. For my part, I do not deny synergy, I simply deny that it requires the time lag that you seem to think so essential to it. The role of human agency in salvation is to accept the grace of God. All our ascetic struggle, prayer, vigils, good works, etc… are nothing more than an attempt to open our hearts to God Himself. But acceptance of God’s grace, though logically prior to reception need not necessarily be temporally prior. Hence your argument that the IC doctrine contradicts synergy seems incorrect to me.

    “I disagree, this comes very close to seeing personhood or a person as definable by consciousness, something I deny.”

    If I’ve understood you correctly, you seem to be confusing being and action. The fact that I possess the sense of sight does not mean that I am always using it. Similarly, to say that an infant is unable to personally cooperate in attaining the grace of baptism is not the same thing as saying that it is not a person or that its personhood depends upon consciousness. But perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning.

    “I don’t think you have to, the concept was in your writing as you were alluding to an argument knowingly or unknowingly to Augustine in Predestination of the Saints, that Christ’s human nature is the most illustrious example of predestination.”

    I’ll leave this point aside. Just for the record, I don’t agree with St. Augustine’s view of predestination. So, if I’m somehow using an argument that implies his view, I rescind the argument.

    “Absolutely, free choice or synergy is a property of the nature, because it can be said about every person. What is common is of the nature, what is absolutely unique is of the person. This is Maximus Dyothelite Christology.”

    There is no doubt that free choice as such is a property of the nature. But my choices are not yours and hence are not properties of human nature but of my person. And it is individual choices that determine one’s growth in grace. But perhaps you are saying that the infant’s free choice is always in accord with its nature which desires God so that, in this case, what is a property of the nature is also a property of the person. The only difficulty with this is that it fails to avoid the whole problem of irresistible grace. The infant’s natural desire for God is so strong that he/she can choose nothing other than God’s grace when it is made present. That’s precisely what is meant by irresistible grace.

    Ed


  66. on July 23, 2008 at 2:46 am Chaka

    Photios,
    I went through some of your posts.If m not wrong,your thinking is that the idea that Mary suffered death some how debunks the doctrine of the IC.What about her Son[Jesus Christ]?Would like to know what you think about her Son.Do you believe He was without sin[original/actual sin]?If you do,then how do you relate this with the fact that He suffered death?


  67. on July 23, 2008 at 2:47 am Perry Robinson

    The above article in terms of historical explanation seems to be mistaken. If the authors take were right, we’d be left unable to explain the denial of the IC among the Scholastics. Was Aquinas not forced to define original sin over against the Pelagians? Was the doctrine not sufficiently understood in the 13th century? And Aquinas wasn’t the only Latin Scholastic who denied the doctrine of IC. You can’t chalk up an Orthodox lack or denial of the doctrine to a lack of interaction with Pelagianism.


  68. on July 23, 2008 at 3:03 am diane

    Good grief. If this is the sort of stuff theologians bruit back and forth, then it’s a wonder there are any theologians in Heaven.

    Let’s hear it for all those layfolk — Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant — who haven’t a clue what half the people here are talking about but who spend their time in prayer and good works, helping out at their parishes, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.

    They will enter the Kingdom before us!


  69. on July 23, 2008 at 3:11 am Perry Robinson

    Ed,

    Gregory Palamas following Maximus and citing Diadochus states the following.

    “Divine grace confers on us two gifts through the baptism of regeneration, one being infinitely superior to the other. The first is given to us at once, when grace renews us in the actual waters of baptism and cleanses all the lineaments of our soul, that is, the image of God in us, by washing away every stain of sin. The second-our likeness to God requires our co-operation.” Defense of the Spiritual Ascent of the Hesychast.

    Children receive the one and only bring to actualization the other. Baptismal regeneration then does not imply monergism or a denial of libertarian free will. As for the deification of Christ’s humanity, you ask what role did his human will play in this? If it didn’t play a role, then children who die have no hope in Christ, since Christ by basses their humanity in the recapitulation of human nature. It is the divine person using the will-the will is not a person unto itself.

    And the Orthodox do think that the theotokos was the product of the generations of sanctification of her ancestors. The point of the law was to refine a people for the incarnation.

    If death does not bear any relation to moral imperfection, then why think that moral imperfection brought death into the world? Further, this undermines Original Sin, since the motivaton for the doctrine in part is to explain why children die-because they suffer from libido or concupiscence. If these are not in some kind of bi-conditional or entailing relationship, then there is less reason to posit Original Sin as an explanation for the death of children. We could just say something like, they die but don’t have libido and don’t suffer from an analogous but collective guilt.

    Mary qua New Eve doesn’t seem a sufficient basis for IC since Eve wasn’t from our standpoint conceived in righteousness either. Her righteousness had to be achieved. If this is so, why would Mary need to be? If not, then this seems indicate the the IC entails the doctrine of original righteousness.

    The contemporaenity of grace with its reception really doesn’t seem to help with the freedom of the will. Further it seemingly undermines any defense for why God permits evil since freedom is the usual explanatory piece of data as to why God can’t create us automatically righteous. (http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/basil-answers-mackie/)

    An infant can accept the grace of baptism, it seems to me that the problem here is that you are glossing grace in strictly personalistic terms. If so, the work of Christ would potentially redeem all on the basis of those with potentially the right volitional/intellectual states (hypothetical universalism) or actually redeem only those with such states but a limited number. (Limited atonement). But in point of fact, all those dead in Adam are all raised up in Christ. Christ died for all because all were dead.
    What Photios means is free will is attributable to both person and nature since its employment is relative to person, whereas qua power it is relative to nature. Sin never removes the latter.

    Harmatia or sin can be spoken of in a wide or narrow sense. Wide in terms of sin in terms of corruption as in 2 cor 5:21 or narrow in terms of a personal act. Loosely speaking in terms of the first, human nature after the fall was sinful, but certainly not in terms of the secondd. And St. Symeon says nothing different.


  70. on July 23, 2008 at 3:59 am Edward De Vita

    Diane,
    I think you’ve got a point. Looking at my last post, I must admit it is rather cryptic. But then, I was simply trying to follow what Photios was saying and trying to give him a Catholic response. In any case, I’ll think I’ll just drop out of the conversation for a while.

    God bless,

    Ed


  71. on July 23, 2008 at 4:10 am Perry Robinson

    Al,

    I don’t think your argument does any work for the point you wish to hold. Notice what JP2 states.

    “Pius IX’s definition refers only to the freedom from original sin and does not explicitly include the freedom from concupiscence. Nevertheless, Mary’s complete preservation from every stain of sin also has as a consequence her freedom from concupiscence, a disordered tendency which, according to the Council of Trent, comes from sin and inclines to sin (DS 1515). 3.”

    Granted the definition does not “explicitly” include freedom from libido. That does not imply that it doesn’t include it or rules it out. Further the Pope says that it has “as a consequence” indicating an implied or causal relation between the definition and the idea of freedom from libido and the Pope affirms that she was freed from it. Is the pope wrong? Further, by the same mode of reasoning, we could reason that Mary was not redeemed either since as the pope noted “The text of the dogmatic definition does not expressly declare that Mary was redeemed…” Are Catholic prepared to say that Mary was not redeemed in the IC? I don’t think so.


  72. on July 23, 2008 at 4:14 am Perry Robinson

    Evagrius,

    If Mary’s yes implies her immaculate conception, and Eve’s yes implies the same then either Eve could not sin or Mary can. In which case, either the Fall is rendered inexplicable as with Calvinism or the IC is rendered useless as an explanatory model and a safe guard. Theophilius of Antioch makes it sufficiently clear that neither Adam nor Eve were created righteous and immortal from the get-go.
    If the taking up of corrupted human nature and an implied process of theosis implies that the Transfirguration is out the window, then if theosis of Christ humanity was already accomplished at the Transfiguraton, then the death of Christ is not only useless, but impossible since his humanity would already be immortal and that gets us into the heresy of apthartodocetism. Besides Scripture says Jesus was “glorified” after the Resurrection. (Jn 12:16)
    Furthermore, a distinction between Christ’s humanity and his divine person doesn’t imply that the latter was an appendage to the former per Chalcedon.


  73. on July 23, 2008 at 4:16 am Fr M Kirby

    I have often disagreed with things Photios has written. But this last set of statements has left me genuinely shocked:

    ” “Do you mean his human nature is corrupted—at least initially at conception? Do you mean his person is corrupted?”

    John,
    Yeah, and I would argue it’s full restoration is not completed until the Resurrection. ”

    If you mean simply natural mortality by corruption, then I have no objection, as this is the merely physical aspect or result of the corruption and privation induced by the Fall. I accept Mary had this too. But if you mean corruption in the broader and more fundamental sense, including concupiscence, I am appalled.

    Jesus is the Redeemer and Healer of Sin, not the redeemed and healed, even in his human nature considered distinctly. So, his human nature was incorrupt in that sense. If this is due (partly) to Mary being the source, as is most fitting and biblical (note the perfect parallelism of Luke 1.42), then we have an entirely incorrupt (in soul) Mary, but one who must be redeemed, not Redeemer. This leads directly to the IC, that is, a complete sanctification leaving no room for concupiscence (IMO), and therefore ab initio, but by grace alone.

    This corruption (which is due to the Fall, and is otherwise known as Original Sin, setting aside the problematic concept of “Original Guilt”) in Orthodox/Catholic doctrine is more than physical death, whether in Eastern or Western Fathers. It includes the absence of Original Righteousness and the consequent presence and dominating power of concupiscence. This can be easily seen in, for example, St Cyril of Alexandria. It is simply false to say that Original Sin is simply or solely mortality (unless that mortality connotes spritual death as well) in the Eastern tradition. Therefore Christ’s mortality does not prove he inherited (and healed by enhypostasis and/or consequent human-divine synergy) a flawed human nature. Nor does Mary’s mortality prove she had such a human nature, which Jesus was thus given initially. It was God’s will to allow the continuance of physical mortality in both the Mother and Son, despite the lack of the normal “cause” (absence of sanctifying grace, presence of concupiscence), since this obviously was necessary to the complete salvific identification of the Saviour with the saved: like us in every way except for sin. To be blunt, it was impossible for the Saviour to be a sinner in any sense, and just as impossible for him to be an utterly self-humbled, self-sacrificial Saviour unless he was mortal.


  74. on July 23, 2008 at 5:20 am Chaka

    Perry Robinson,
    If you really understand what is called ‘the development of doctrine’ you wont say St.Thomas Aquinas in a strict sense deny the doctrine of the IC.Look for example at the doctrine of the Trinity.Before its formal definition in the year 325 AD,all the Church authors who spoke about that doctrine admitted that the Father is God,the Son is God,and the Holy Spirit is God.But when it came to the part where they wanted to explain the relation of the Father with Son or the Father with the Holy Spirit or the Son With the Holy Spirit,some of them like St.Justin Martyr,Origen,St.Hippolytus,Tertullian e.t.c held inadequate theories which sort of imply subordinationism. But this doesnt mean those men denied the doctrine of the Trinity.No they believed in it but fell short in trying to formulate a precise doctrine about it.The same with the doctrine of the IC.Before a precise doctrine about it was formulated,all the Scholastics theologians who spoke about that doctrine admitted that the Theotokos was free from sin[original/actual].But when it came to the part where they wanted to explain the exert time she was redeemed,some of them like St.Thomas Aquinas,St.Bernard e.t.c held inadequate theories which sort of imply that she was redeemed in her mothers womb after her conception.But this doesnt mean those men denied the doctrine of the IC.No they believed in it but fell short in trying to formulate a precise doctrine about it.


  75. on July 23, 2008 at 7:42 am Fr Paul

    Photius
    I am endulging in voluntary understatement when I say that it is speculative recklessness to say that Christ had a corrupted human nature. Fr Kirby points out the ambiguity of this statement. If you are, as I suspect, seeking to apply as far as possibke the principle of “to aproslépton atherapeuton”, that what is not assumed is not healed, and to push as far as possible the consequences of Christ’s consubstantiality with us (which is entirely laudable and necessary), then it seems to me that you are making a category error: the corruption of a nature is not a substantial part of that nature but an accident (if you will pardon the aristotelian language) which tends to its dissolution. Christ’s incorrupt nature is no more an obstacle to His complete consubstantiality with us than His having two legs prevents his being consubstantial with those who have only one.

    The fact is that Christ took on our nature, which is in fact existentially corrupt, but which can never be essentially corrupt because its corruption consists precisely in what is contrary to its God-given nature. The healing of our nature in every one of its faculties and ages involves precisely its being “wielded” (if that seems too Nestorian a concept, sorry…I am searching for a better) by the Word of God.

    It seems to me appropriate that the perfection of the Redeemer be mirrored perfectly in one of the Redeemed. That is the essence of the IC. Lossky says, in a beautiful passage in his Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church (p. 190 in the French edition – the only one I have to hand. Ch. 9 near the end), that the Theotokos is the hypostasis wherein the Church is perfectly realized on this side of the eschaton, and that “if she submits herself to the conditions of human life even to accepting death, this is in virtue of her perfect will, in which she was reproducing the voluntary kenosis of her Son”.

    This does not of course necessitate absolutely the IC, let alone prove it, since it is conceivable that this perfection was given at some point after conception, as Aquinas and others point out. Lossky himself of course does not accept the IC. The passage I have quoted does, however, like so many other texts of byzantine theologians ancient and modern, illustrate the point that if you construct a system whose whole point is to be an antithesis of Western theology, then you will have to amputate great chunks of your own tradition to try and make this plausible. I fear that this is what is at work here, and in other elements of your thought. My own reading of the Byzantine tradition as a whole is that, while the imposition of the IC as a dogma is understandably resented and resisted, there is no grounds to stipulate an absolute opposition of principle.

    I understand why you have grappled with the problem of predestination, and why it has become the crux interpretationis of the whole of theology for you. I think you should beware, though, of constructing around the concept of synergy a theological structure every bit as satisfying to you as predestination was to Augustine, and every bit as much a logical straightjacket as that notion became for him and his successors. The trouble with grand “theories of everything”, of the “filioque sum of all heresies” type, is that in theology at least reality is much more messy than they allow for, and that their promotors are invariably obliged to ignore and/or distort much of the information available in order to make it fit their aesthetically pleasing, but largely a priori systems.

    I share your suspicion of over-reliance on philosophy, by the way. It is a tendancy which led Origen and others into heresy and it is not absent from the thinking of orthodox thinkers – even authoritative ones – in both East and West. The “handmaid” has too often gotten above herself and behaved like the mistress – Rahner is a baleful modern example of this. You might seek to criticise my use of philosophical categories above. But if you think that your own reasoning is devoid of philosphical influences and presuppositions, then you are cruelly deluded. It is impossible to reason about matters of faith – something we are both doing – without using philosophical language and categories.


  76. on July 23, 2008 at 7:49 am Fr Paul

    Perry Robinson
    I hope the above makes clear that I am not arguing that the IC is necessary to refute Pelagianism. You are right to point out that, if it were, aquinas and others would not have opposed it. I have only suggested that the system upon which Photius’ refutation of the IC depends seems in some respects dangerously open to Pelagianism. He himself admits a degree of openness to some Pelagian principles with which I am highly uncomfortable, allthough I am not accusing him of heresy. Others have and do oppose the IC on other grounds, and those arguments have to be treated seriously, wiyhin their own frame of reference.


  77. on July 23, 2008 at 9:58 am diane

    Ed–so sorry! I was not at all referring to your post. Not at all. The fact that my post came right after yours made it appear that I was responding to you. But in fact I wasn’t. I apologize for the confusion!


  78. on July 23, 2008 at 10:10 am diane

    Perry: I may be completely off-base here. My theological betters (i.e., everyone on this forum) can correct me if I am. But I have always assumed that, in fact, Mary-qua-New Eve could have committed actual sin–but didn’t. IOW: Paralleling the Old Eve, she was immaculately conceived. But, unlike th Old Eve, she continued to cooperate with Grace faithfully throughout her life. Could she at any point have said “No” as Eve did? Yes. But she didn’t. She continually said “yes”–“Fiat mihi”–and thereby “untied the knots” of Eve’s disobedience.

    IOW, I don’t think the IC meant Mary could never sin…as though she were henceforth an automaton, predestined so absolutely that she had to remain sinless. The IC did not obliterate her free will. Nor did it remove her from that tension in which all mortals live this side of the grave–although it did mean she was not inclined toward concupiscence as we are. But technically (I believe!) she could have committed actual sin, just as the immaculately “conceived” Eve did. But, unlike Eve, Mary didn’t. So, not only did she have the special privilege and advantage of immaculate conception (just as Eve did). She also had the superadded blessing of her own continued cooperation with Grace (which Eve did not have). All through Grace and crowned by Grace. Hence, as the Angel rightly noted, she was full of Grace.

    Again, if this view is mistaken, I invite Father Paul or Ed de Vita or another well-versed Catholic to correct me.


  79. on July 23, 2008 at 10:15 am diane

    She also had the superadded blessing of her own continued cooperation with Grace (which Eve did not have).

    I should have said: which Eve, through Eve’s own fault, did not have. No one stuck a gun in Eve’s back and forced her to eat the apple.

    When we speak of Our Lady’s unbroken and unsullied cooperation with Grace, we speak of her “merit.” I know merit is a loaded term for non-Catholics–although it corresponds with the Biblical concept of reward–but suffice it to say, as Augustine observed, that even our merits result from God’s Grace and are crowned by Grace.


  80. on July 23, 2008 at 10:19 am diane

    Father Kirby: What a beautiful, persuasive, and compelling post. Thank you!


  81. on July 23, 2008 at 11:31 am Fr Paul

    Diane
    my understanding is the same as yours. If Mary had been impeccable, then as far as I understand it her freedom would indeed have been abolished. But we are both subject to correction! According to Augustine, the lot of humans under grace in this life is “posse non peccare” – being able not to sin; “Non posse peccare” – not being able to sin – is the lot of the blessed in heaven. Someone MIGHT respond (Augustine did – but in another context) that the latter are more truly free than the former, and our hypothetical interlocutor might then add that Mary’s sinlessness was an anticipation of heavely glory, ergo…

    It is worth noticing, however, that for classical Latin scholasticism, the impeccability of the blessed is a result of their knowledge of all things in God: sin is esentially the result of ignorance at least for Aquinas, and I think for Augustine too. Nobody, as far as I am aware, has ever suggested that the Mother of God was omniscient in her earthly pilgrimage.

    So I for one really would need an aweful lot of convincing that Mary could not have sinned…


  82. on July 23, 2008 at 12:17 pm diane

    Thank you, Father Paul! Whew, I’m not as off-base as I feared. :)

    Ed de Vita: Again, I apologize for my silly post, way above, dissing speculative theology. I think I was feeling defensive because so much of it is way over my wee little head!


  83. on July 23, 2008 at 12:38 pm Perry Robinson

    Chaka,

    I think the question of the views of the Scholastics isn’t a question of understanding the theory of DD, but rather a factual question, which the theory may seek to explain. And I deny that the Trinity is an example or a fact explained by the theory of DD. Justin, Origen and so forth had a problem since the terminology they were employing was inherently dialectical as it was derived from Greek philosophy. Consequently by view is exactly the opposite of DD. Whereas that theory requires philosophy as a handmaiden to draw out implicit yet hidden content from theology, my view is that philosophy is simply inadequate and opposed to Christian theology because of its dialectical content. It is inconsistent with a Christian view of creation as articulated by Ireneaus and Athanasius, not to mention Maximus’ Neo-Chalcedonian Christology.

    Furthermore, you can’t reasonably draw an analogy between that case and Aquinas’ denial of the IC since on the previous case all men affirmed the divinity of Christ but couldn’t come up with an adequate way of expressing it. Aquinas’ problem wasn’t that he couldn’t come up with an adequate way of expressing IC, but that he denied it and I take that to be a fairly uncontroversial fact even in Catholicism.


  84. on July 23, 2008 at 12:52 pm Perry Robinson

    Diane,

    Even if you were correct that Mary could sin, but just didn’t, where is that defined in an authoritative way? Or where is it taught, even in an undefined form? Nothing personal, but I can’t take what you have always assumed to be an adequate basis for thinking something is Catholic teaching.
    If being morally impeccable implies someone is predestined and an automaton, is this then true for Jesus’ humanity not to mention the saints in heaven since in those cases there is moral impeccability? That leads straight to Calvinism, Origenism, etc. You seem to imply that moral impeccability is incompatible with free will. Concupiscence or libido is not something one is inclined to, but something you suffer from. If you were inclined to it, you’d already have it. Further does “panagia” mean all holy or mostly holy? It would seem the latter given the way Catholics have read that term if she hasn’t the grace of impeccability yet.

    Further, even if she was not morally impeccable from conception, this would still leave untouched the idea that she can be conceived with moral credit and rectitude apart from any volitional activity. That is, it is not a necessary condition for righteousness and being morally praiseworthy/blameworthy that one perform some action. If so, then I don’t know how one can adequately stave off the objection to believe in God from evil.


  85. on July 23, 2008 at 1:01 pm Perry Robinson

    Fr. Paul,

    Like, Diane’s, the gloss you give can’t be right, since it would imply that Christ wasn’t truly human since he was morally impeccable and free and the same is true for the Trinity and the saints in the eschaton.

    As for Latin Scholasticism, what you state is true for Aquinas, but it isn’t true for Scotus and Ockham. The possibility of sin for Scotus is an intrinsic part of free will, which Scotus gets around by having it be the case that God simply doesn’t give the blessed any opportunity to exercise it in relation to an immoral mode of will. That is, God doesn’t give them the opportunity to sin, but their ability to do so is never removed.


  86. on July 23, 2008 at 1:42 pm evagrius

    Perry- Fascinating, isn’t it that I can discuss a topic on this blog with you while you won’t allow me to post on your blog?

    I agree with Frs Paul and Kirby, ( but think that Origen was not as “philosophical” as has been charged- see Origen Against Plato by Mark Julian Edwards or the more detailed works by Panayiotis Tzamalikos on Origen).

    Forcing theological datum through a preconceived philosophical grid does result in some interesting distortions.

    As regards the Transfiguration- I would like to know how Mr. Robinson’s view of it squares with that of Palamas et. al who seem to have viewed the Taboric Light as the goal/ end of theosis, ( at least on this earth).


  87. on July 23, 2008 at 1:44 pm diane

    Forcing theological datum through a preconceived philosophical grid does result in some interesting distortions.

    Well put. You have crystallized my inchoate thoughts!


  88. on July 23, 2008 at 1:50 pm Perry Robinson

    Fr Paul,

    I think Photios like myself is not trying to be speculative but simply has two concerns in mind. The first is to follow St. Maximus’ teaching and the second is to stave off aphthartodocetism. Perhaps if you could distinguish your position from the latter it would help.

    As for Maximus, I’d take a look at Ad Thalassium 42
    “Therefore our Lord and God, rectifying this reciprocal corruption and alteration of our human nature by taking on the whole of our nature, even had in his assumed nature the liability to passions which, in his own exercise of free he adorned with incorruptibility. And it is by virtue of his assumption of this natural passibility that he became sin for our sake, though he did not know any deliberate sin because of the immutability of his free choice. Because his free choice was incorruptible, he rectified our nature’s liability to passions and turned the end of our nature’s passibility-which is death- into the beginning of our natural transformation to incorruption. In turn, just as through one man, who turned voluntarily from the good, the human nature was changed from incorruption to corruption to the detriment of all humanity, so too through one man, Jesus Christ, who did not voluntarily turn from the good, human nature underwent a restoration from corruption to incorruption for the benefit of all humanity…Yet the Lord took onthis very condemnation of my deliberate sin, that is to say, the passibility, corruptibility and mortality of our nature…Accordingly he has driven sin, passion, corruption and death from human nature and the economy of Christ’s philanthropy on my behalf has become for me one fallen through disobedience a new mystery.”

    By “synergy” I think what Photios takes himslf to be doing is placing Christology at the center of theological method. So I don’t think he is making synergy into some concept around which to build his theology. It is rather part of a constellation of modes of proper thinking about theology.

    As for grand theories of everything, I would think your criticisms would equally apply to grand conspiracy theories like those literally invented around St. Photios, not to mention the theories concerning the papacy as well. That saw cuts both ways.

    And even if true that we can’t express theology without philosophical concepts, I can’t see the inference from our inability to its appropriateness, adequacy, acceptability or truth. I don’t think that Daniel thinks that he is philosophically neutral. Rather I think that he thinks that philosophy qua dialectic is an improper tool for doing theology since it posits that the world is composed of opposite powers that serve as a basis for distinguishing things. One has only to recognize that Aristotle’s square of opposition for example is a product of Plato’s metaphysical thesis concerning forms as causes of things. Some causes are all cause and no effect (forms). Some causes are some cause and some effect. Some effects are some cause and some effect. And some effects are all effect and no cause at all (matter). In opposition to this (pun!) Athanasius for example sees the work of Christ as reconciling all of these powers, even going so far as to expressly contradict Plato in asserting that Christ makes the opposing powers of the hot and the cold “friends.” It is the apparatus established in Athanasius doctrine of Creation that there is no created intermediary between God and creation and that the world is not in fact opposed to God, that enables him to undercut Arius’ essentially philosophical model of a subordinate and intervening deity. Consequently, philosophy is not a proper tool for doing theology.


  89. on July 23, 2008 at 1:57 pm Photios Jones

    Fr. Kirby,
    “If you mean simply natural mortality by corruption, then I have no objection, as this is the merely physical aspect or result of the corruption and privation induced by the Fall.”

    What I mean by corruption is a nature that is liable to death. A nature that is falling apart: mortality.

    “I accept Mary had this too. But if you mean corruption in the broader and more fundamental sense, including concupiscence, I am appalled.”

    And here we get to the key distinctions about person and nature. Let’s start with some questions. Is concupiscence rooted in the natural will(Nature) or is it proper to the mode of willing(Person)? And then, how does this relate to Fallen and Unfallen modes of willing?

    “Jesus is the Redeemer and Healer of Sin, not the redeemed and healed, even in his human nature considered distinctly. So, his human nature was incorrupt in that sense.”

    To think that Christ inherited and had a perfect human nature incorruptible is the heresy of aphthartodocetism. I don’t think you want to say this.

    “If this is due (partly) to Mary being the source, as is most fitting and biblical (note the perfect parallelism of Luke 1.42), then we have an entirely incorrupt (in soul) Mary, but one who must be redeemed, not Redeemer. This leads directly to the IC, that is, a complete sanctification leaving no room for concupiscence (IMO), and therefore ab initio, but by grace alone.”

    If a person, Mary or anyone else, can be placed into a “state of grace” (which is a formation of habit mind you) apart from and removed from a co-operative will, this differs from gratia irresistibilis, how?

    “It includes the absence of Original Righteousness and the consequent presence and dominating power of concupiscence.”

    This is begging the question since I deny such a thing as Original Righteousness. What Adam had was the ability to be righteous or unrighteous, mortal or immortal. This is because created hypostasis have a beginning, and hold fast to motion til the end is attained, and they still move even after the end is had. Resting-motion to put this in Maximimus’ terms is a property of the nature. So, Adam had “righteousness” as dynamis, the capacity for, but he was not in a “state of grace.” A “state of grace” is dependent on the formation of habit, which is dependent on doing something, which depends on recapitulating the divine power that God created you with. Renewing it as your own.

    And as a reductio and to assume your view for the moment, to say that Original Sin is the absence of Original Righteousness is tantamount to saying that “nature” is evil or sinful in the absence of grace.

    Photios


  90. on July 23, 2008 at 2:01 pm Photios Jones

    “As regards the Transfiguration- I would like to know how Mr. Robinson’s view of it squares with that of Palamas et. al who seem to have viewed the Taboric Light as the goal/ end of theosis, ( at least on this earth).”

    Sure. But what is the relationship to the Taboric light in this life and the Taboric light to those of the Saints in the Eschaton? And then, how does this relate to impeccability? The answer to those questions might higlight for you how we might view that.

    Photios


  91. on July 23, 2008 at 2:03 pm Perry Robinson

    Evagrius,

    I am not sure who you are, but if you are who I think you are, then all I can say is that in four years of blogging, you are only one of two people banned. (The other is a Mormon apologist who threatened me and my family.) That is because you consistently make personal attacks and rude remarks. I have no doubt if you posted the way you tried to do there here, you’d be asked to leave as well.

    I have actually posted excerpts from Tzamalikos’ works on my blog in the past. As for Edwards work, I haven’t read it yet.

    As for the Transfiguration, I would think it is simple to recognize that theosis admits of degrees. Otherwise, if you make it an all or nothing deal, you will either have to say that the Apostle John was wrong or that theosis is divorced from glorification. Palamas says neither of the latter and I take him to admit the former.


  92. on July 23, 2008 at 2:16 pm Photios Jones

    Fr. Paul

    “This does not of course necessitate absolutely the IC, let alone prove it, since it is conceivable that this perfection was given at some point after conception, as Aquinas and others point out.”

    Which is what I believe, we can debate the temporality of “when” all day long in communion, and such doesn’t deter from the same reality that we believe. So, I’m quite comfortable with Lossky’s gloss.

    “illustrate the point that if you construct a system whose whole point is to be an antithesis of Western theology, then you will have to amputate great chunks of your own tradition to try and make this plausible.”

    No, and to be pointed in that “no,” what I’m doing is reading the Christological controversies and particularly Maximus the Confessor as a necessary corrective to Augustine, which gives Sts. John Cassian and Vincent of Lerins the theological muscle that they were lacking in refuting the Augustinians.

    ‘“filioque sum of all heresies”’

    This involves reading St. Photios’ Mystagogy at face value and taking his assumption of Carolingian principles and turning them back on themselves in several dialectical arguments. His thesis, whether you agree with it or not, was that the filioque taken to its logical conclusions could re-produce Origenism, Polytheism, Sabellianism, and Nestorianism. I don’t think its conducive to this discussion to go off topic into that (even though I believe this doctrine of God is the production of the free-will/predestination problem).

    Photios


  93. on July 23, 2008 at 2:36 pm Fr Paul

    Perry
    it is difficult to know when one should resist the temptation to have the last word. However, since I am sure you will deprive me of any danger of having this desire realized, I will say:
    – I am well aware of the non-thomistic positions you note in coment n° 85. I do not regard them as successful. Neither do I regard Aquinas’ position as entirely convincing. I have an open mind on this question.
    – I will be the first to admit that Catholic apologetics have not always been free from taint of the aspects I find unhelpful in Photios’ position. I am on record as having said so on this blog. So yes, it does cut both ways. It was meant to.
    – Since you invite me to differentiate myself from aphtharto-docetism, I am glad to do so. I believe that Christ could and did die. Easy wasn’t it? Christ was subject to suffering and death, by a free divine condescension in view of the redemtive economy (I thought I had said as much already…) Augustine exresses this by talking of his assuming the “forma servi”.

    If, by Christ having a corrupt nature,you mean that he assumed a nature subject to suffering and death, then I have no problem with that. I do however, think that it is incumbent upon writers who wish to be understood to express themselves in a way adapted to the contemporary use of our language To say that someone “has a corrupt nature” is not usually understood in the sense above. If we are using more technical language, then I would distinguish between “assuming nature subject to corruption” and “having a corrupt nature”. I see nothing in the quotation from Maximus that I would not agree with. If I did disagree with him, that would not be any more dramatic than Photius’ discounting of Orthodox saints who disagree with his own take. None of the Fathers is infallible outside the consensus of the orthodox.

    And now, since I find that my writing is beginning to take on the acid tone characteristic of your own, I judge it time to fall silent, at least for the present. I will read the articles Photius recommends and think about his points with as much neutrality as I am capable of. When I have read more by Photius himself I might have more to say. I wish to point out that I have not said that he has used philosophical tools improperly, merely that there is a danger in his (and your) way of doing theology. You say you reject dialectic, but your own treatment of Catholic positions seems to be one which seeks oppositions and not convergences. If that is not a dialectical methodology, I am inteterested in how you define the term.


  94. on July 23, 2008 at 2:44 pm evagrius

    “That is because you consistently make personal attacks and rude remarks.”

    Poking fun at pretensions of “theological correctness” is not rude nor personal.

    It’s nice and entertaining to discuss theological minutae but in the end, it’s only an amusement if the score has already been determined from the beginning. On this combox, I see that the score is yet to be determined.

    As for theosis, given that we are temporal and contingent creatures, it’s obvious that it is ongoing and progressive as St. Gregory of Nyssa ponted out.

    But you haven’t really responed to the question regarding the Transfiguration that I posted in response to Mr. Jones’ remarks regarding the “corrupt” humanity of Christ. Neither has Mr. Jones who answers a question with a question.


  95. on July 23, 2008 at 2:54 pm diane

    your own treatment of Catholic positions seems to be one which seeks oppositions and not convergences

    You can say that again, Father.

    I hope you return from your hiatus soon!

    Diane


  96. on July 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm Photios Jones

    Evagrius,

    I’m just going to ask question to you because 1) It prevents me from being polemical toward you, and 2) you seem to ignore my emphasis of Recapitulation that I’ve made in numerous writings. I believe Recapitulation to be a touchstone for a developing humanity in Christ. That’s because his humanity has a beginning. That the whole point of the doctrine for Irenaeus. If you would actually read and try to anticipate the soundness of the view, you might understand that I don’t think that the “corruption” that Christ inherits is a “state” or static thing he’s stuck with until the Resurrection. So if you want to actually go and read my paper on Maximus or my lengthy comments on the topic and give a formal rebuttal that’s more than a few sentences long that doesn’t involve sarcasm and being snide toward me, please do so and I’ll consider a dialogue with you.

    Photios


  97. on July 23, 2008 at 3:01 pm Perry Robinson

    Evagrius,

    Actually I took myself to have responded to your point regarding the Transfiguration. The theosis of Christ’s humanity was ongoing throughout his earthly sojourn a la recaptiulation. As John says, Jesus was not yet glorified, long after Mt. Tabor.


  98. on July 23, 2008 at 3:02 pm Photios Jones

    “You say you reject dialectic, but your own treatment of Catholic positions seems to be one which seeks oppositions and not convergences.”

    Fr. Paul,

    What we’re doing is using the rhetorical devices of philosophy to try an give an internal critigue. I think this is quite proper. If we assume dialectical arguments in refutations, it is because the nature that the doctrine is built on is inherently dialectical. Perhaps you disagree and you can offer a different look.

    An internal critique of Orthodoxy on the other hand, would look different, because we don’t assume the principle of dialectical opposition to be adequate in evaluating Christology and Triadology.

    Photios


  99. on July 23, 2008 at 3:07 pm Chaka

    Perry Robinson,
    Its like you dont really get my analogy.If I go by your way of thinking one can say that early Church authors like St.Justin,St.Hippolytus,Tertullian,and Origen denied that the Father and the Son are equal because the theories they held regarding the relationship of the Father to the Son imply a sort of subordinationism.But if you try to understand these men in the context of DD then one cannot strictly say that they denied that the Father and the Son are equal.The same can be said in regards to the Scholastic theologains and their attempt to understand the sinlessness of the Theotokos.They all accepted that the Theokokos was sinlesss[just like all the early Church authors accepted that the Person of the Father is God,the Person of the Son is God,and the Person of the Holy Spirit is God]But some of them like St.Thomas Aquinas,St.Bernard e.t.c held inadequate theories which sort of imply that she was redeemed in her mother’s womb after her conception[just as some of the early Church authors,when speaking of the relationship of the Father to the Son,held inadequate theories that sort of imply subordinationism]Now,if we cannot strictly say that men like St.Justin denied that the Father and Son are equal,then one cannot strictly say that men like St.Thomas denied that Mary was conceived in a state of grace.Why?Because,like the early Church authors, we have to understand the scholastic theologian in the context of DD.That was the analogy I was drawing between the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the IC.

    Concerning your veiws about philosophy I would like you to explain more about it.Is it that you totally disapprove the use of philosophical term as a tool in trying to understand Church doctrines?Should we then do away with terms such as ‘Trinity’,’consubstantiality’,and even ‘Logos’? Please explain your position.


  100. on July 23, 2008 at 3:27 pm Perry Robinson

    Fr.Paul,

    Let me try to take a step back. I haven’t intended my tone to be acidic with you so that if it appears that way, I sincerely beg your forgiveness, or at least your oversight. I took myself to be writing directly to the points and ideas as expressed and as I understood their expression.

    As for the points themselves, to be clear, regarding Scholasticism that I agree with you that their takes on the question of freedom in the eschaton are not successful. That said, to be fair, I believe you did gloss “scholasticism” rather widely to be pretty much Aquinas’ position. And that seems to have been where my beef lied. I only wished to be fair to the other side in noting that there are a variety of ways to understand the matter from the Latin perspective.

    The aphthartodocetists took Christ to die willingly as well but by will so more needs to be said. You do go some way in that direction later on but I am not convinced it maps what Maximus has in mind. As for Augustine, I don’t find his gloss on the form of man, form of God to be helpful. This is largely due to the examination of Michel Barnes. Not that Barnes argues this, but rather what I have taken from his examination of Augustine’s grounds and framing of those two forms.

    I suppose we must disagree over what Maximus means by “liability to passions” and that this constitutes “becoming sin.” I only mean by this to attempt to locate where we need to focus to resolve the matter. For my part, Maximus takes Christ’s taking up of our nature as a healing of our “he rectified our nature’s liability to passions.” Now this liability can’t be intrinsic to our nature, but an actual result of the fall. If it were the former, then his gloss on 2 Cor 5:21ff would make no sense since nature prior to the fall, even conceptually considered apart from grace, is not sin on anyone’s gloss who rejects total depravity. This I think is supported by Maximus’ statements that Christ took on “this very condemnation” and drove it out of our nature through asceticism. If Christ never had it, I can’t see that Maximus’ words would make sense. What it does exclude though is any kind of “analogous” non-personal collective guilt of the human race.

    If we are to dissent from Maximus, we’d need sufficient reason to do so for it can equally be the case that the relation of views runs in the other direction, that is, that the other Fathers are to be read in line with Maximus on this point. That has certainly happened in the past with plenty of other Fathers. And this is why the Church codified the writings of specific fathers as authoritative and Spirit-inspired representative teachings of the church on specific matters. Cyril of Alexandria is another example. Leo had to agree with Cyril. Maximus’s writings on dyothelite/dyoenergistic Christology have so been codified by the church in her councils (2nd Nicea if memory serves.) So it isn’t easy for me to distance myself from Maximus here. In any case, given his stature in the church, (a layman no less) his views deserve careful consideration on that basis alone.

    As for dialectic, I think a careful reading of Plato’s middle and later dialogs will make it clear what I have in mind. I tried to sketch it out above. Using the method of my opponent to show its inadequacy is only a form of a reductio and doesn’t imply my commitment to it. Convergence is just as much a part of dialectic. The question is whether the oppositions that I seem to see are in fact present.

    As for your proposed absence, while moving away from distorting passions is commendable, it is also commendable to triumph over it actively by pushing through a genuine activity. (Jesus did.) So I’d invite you to continue commenting as you are able since I find you one of the more able and worthwhile commentors here.


  101. on July 23, 2008 at 3:47 pm Fr Paul

    Perry
    ok and I apologise too. I’m still off for a while, though no longer in a huff. And I’ll be back. So thanks for the kind comments.


  102. on July 23, 2008 at 3:50 pm Perry Robinson

    Chaka,

    I understand the analogy you are attempting to draw, I just deny that it is analogous. Now to be fair, specifically to Origen, he did not in fact deny the full divinity of the Son. He in fact maintained the eternality of the world in order to protect it. It is that his expressions were not consistent with the Son’s divinity in other places. I don’t need DD to do that work. I just need to read what Origen explicitly says.
    Further, I don’t think the Fathers need to be improved upon by the Schoolmen, which is why the church has not ceased to produce Fathers. When it does, I’ll take DD more seriously I suppose. And I am opposed on a more general level to Platonic, Hegelian or Newmanesque theories of history that are dialectical and drive us to some quasi-utopian view of the world’s history. Such theories end up producing lots of illicit sex or lots of dead bodies or both. (Que the 1960’s or Marxism) Consequently, I am no friend to Idealism in that regard. Past errors or evils are not made good by contributing to future goods. The evil in the world is not justified by future goods. Consequently, I reject Felix Culpa and ironically as it sounds, side with David Hart on this point. I can’t help but see Newmans theory of DD as a form of Idealism.

    To my knowledge, Aquinas and other Scholastics did not “sort of” deny the IC. They expressly denied it.

    As for specific terms I take terms like homoousia not to be used in a philosophical sense. In fact, their philosophical content has been “sucked out” and they function in a strictly apophatic way. Trying to gloss or put into homoousia for example some philosophical model to explicate that unity will only and always has IMHO ended up producing heresy. Stead’s stuff on this I think is right, though he draws different conclusions. The union is unspeakable and unknowable because God qua essence is. The use of technical terms is fine, provided that the asymmetrical relationship between theology and philosophy is maintained. If I distinguish God from creation for example using dialectic, then I will have to say such things that God is “totally other” than creation, in which case I will need some sort of intermediary which is something like God and something like creation. Whether that something is a created Son, created grace, or something else produced by will or efficient causality makes no different IMHO. But following Athanasius, God’s relation to the world is direct and not understood in terms of what the world is, God is not and vice versa. If it were, God could never become incarnate, suck a breast, and die. But he did.


  103. on July 23, 2008 at 4:50 pm Pontificator

    I have known so many Orthodox believers over the years and have read countless Orthodox authors. I have never met one who would have seriously entertained the possibility that the Theotokos was ever guilty of actual sin. Yes, it’s possible to cite the speculations of St John Chrysostom to the contrary; but all the Orthodox I have known, present company excepted, have judged and do judge any suggestion that the Blessed Virgin Mary was a sinner as impious and contrary to Orthodox faith and prayer. The words of St Silouan the Athonite are often cited:

    “In church I was listening to a reading from the prophet Isaiah, and at the words, ‘Wash you, make you clean,’ I reflected, ‘Maybe the Mother of God sinned at one time or another, if only in thought.’ And, marvelous to relate, in unison with my prayer a voice sounded in my heart, saying clearly, ‘The Mother of God never sinned even in thought.’ Thus did the Holy Spirit bear witness in my heart to her purity.”

    This, I believe, is the deep truth of Catholic and Orthodox faith and should be the beginning point for all Catholic/Orthodox dialogue on the Theotokos. I am, quite frankly, astounded when Daniel and Perry, both recent converts to Orthodoxy, express willingness to entertain the possibility of the personal sinfulness of the Theotokos, invoking philosophical arguments on free-will and synergism. I cannot believe that St Maximus would approve of his reflections being employed in this way. Clearly both polemics and logic are being allowed to distort apprehension and expression of a truth known and acclaimed by the saints.

    The purity of the Holy Mother of God is a mystery of faith shared by both Orthodoxy and Catholicism. It is this mystery that that Catholic dogma of the IC, however imperfectly and one-sidedly, seeks to protect.

    Perhaps we all should take off our shoes before the mystery of the Theotokos and sing together the Akathist to the Holy Virgin. Those who would be theologians and controversialists need to be very careful. We are walking on holy ground.


  104. on July 23, 2008 at 5:03 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    “Let’s hear it for all those layfolk — Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant — who haven’t a clue what half the people here are talking about but who spend their time in prayer and good works, helping out at their parishes, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.”

    True enough and very good point. But let’s not make those efforts you describe in vain either, as I don’t believe the Christian religion is intellectually hollow. The Church has room for both and we should all do both to the best that we can.

    Photios


  105. on July 23, 2008 at 5:08 pm Perry Robinson

    Al,

    We can toss Basil along with Chrysostom under the Bus. How many more Fathers should go there? I am not sure why you gloss it at “speculations.” And if so, the contrary seems just as speculative. Private revelations and speculations aren’t a basis for dogma in any case. As for what others have judged to be the case, I find it rather ironic that you are appealing to private judgment in this matter.

    As for my recent conversion, I’ve been Orthodox since 2000/1. Frankly I don’t think you are in a position to throw out this ad hom. How long have you been Catholic? How many years of spiritual formation as a Catholic priest have you had in a Catholic seminary? People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Besides, I know Orthodox who have been Orthodox for decades who think as much-both clergy and lay. How much time in the Orthodox Church have you spent exactly?

    As for Maximus, let us be fair here. You weren’t even aware of his teaching until I brought it up to you. Out your vast exerpience invoking St. Maximus and reading his works you think he wouldn’t approve of his teaching being used in this way? What if he said as much concerning the Theotokos? What then? Neither were you familiar with St. Photios teaching and lots of other teachings relative to Orthodoxy. Frankly, I can’t see why you get to speak for Orthodoxy. You may wish to stick with arguments and put personal assualts aside.


  106. on July 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm Edward De Vita

    Father Al,
    That was a very moving post! Among the wisest and most profound I’ve ever read. Thank you.

    God bless,

    Ed


  107. on July 23, 2008 at 5:16 pm Chaka

    Perry Robinson,
    You said:” I don’t need DD to do that work. I just need to read what Origen explicitly says”.

    Now,If you want to read what Origen or Justin or Tertullian explicitly says(outside the context of DD),then you will have to concede that they denied that the Father and the Son are equal.Just as if you want to read what Thomas or Bernard explicitly says(outside the context of DD)you will have to concede that they denied the IC.Thats my whole point all this while on the importance of understanding Church doctrines in the context of DD.There is still another way to look at it.What differenciates men like St.Justin,Origen,Tertullian in thier theories of the relationship of the Father to the Son from Arius?All of them held a form of subordinationism which appears as a denial that the father and the Son are equal.But the fact that Aruis held that the Son was a creature differentiates him from those early Church.Those early Church authors believed that the Son was begotten but not made.The same can be said in regards to the scholastic theologians in comparism to modern protestant theologians.What differenciates men like Thomas,Bernard in their theories of the sinlessness of The Theotokos from modern protestants theologians?Every one of them held/hold theories which appears as a denial that the Theotokos was conceived in a state of grace.But the fact that modern protestant theologians claim that the Theotokos could have sinned during the course of her earthly life differentiates them from those scholastic theologians.The scholastic theologians believed that the Theotokos was sinless.
    If you look at the other way I have presented the analogy,I guess you come to appreciate what is understood by DD.It is not a Newman invention as you seem to imply but can be found in some of the writings of the early Church authors like St.Vincent.Even in the Old Testament some doctrines experienced gradual development,e.g the doctrine of angels,demons,the immortality of the soul,the reality of hell,the resurrection of the dead e.t.c.Because some groups like Jehovah witnesses dont realize this.They wrongfully accuse the Psalmists and the author of Ecclesiates of denying the immmortality of the soul in certain passages.


  108. on July 23, 2008 at 5:36 pm Photios Jones

    Fr. Kimel,

    “St John Chrysostom to the contrary”

    That is a witness that you cannot ignore. And we can add to that witness St. Basil and St. Cyril of Alexandria. So, what are you going to do with these very big names? Did the apostolic tradition that they assumed not pass down this teaching to these great men?

    “[E]xpress willingness to entertain the possibility of the personal sinfulness of the Theotokos, invoking philosophical arguments on free-will and synergism.”

    This is not true. I invoke the arguments of Maximus on synergism to show a reductio ad absurdum that the Immaculate Conceptio, i.e. that one can be in a “state of grace” apart from motion of their will.

    The question of whether or not Mary personally sinned is a distinct thesis, because in my view Al, you and I and Everybody are going to die regardless if you personally sinned or not. Death is natural, sin is personal.

    I entertain that she might have sinned, however so slight, based on my reading of Romans 5, specifically that very ANGLICAN translation of the KJV which is the best translation of the greek in all its subtleness. That is, roughly, Adam’s sin caused Him to die, and that he passed on this death in his human nature to his posterity, and for that (“that” pronoun modifying death) all have sinned. In other words, inheritance of death is a causal principle for sin, this is because death places in opposition person and nature with doubt, ignorance, and opposition (i.e. a person is ignorant of and in opposition to what is natural to him). Christ being the only one exempt from sinning, because 1) He is the Recapitulation of humanity, and 2) There is no opposition in Christ because he does not have a gnomic will that accompanies doubt and oppostion, but rather His mode of willing is a divine one.

    Furthermore, there’s no reason why you should lump Perry necessarily with me as this is an open-ended question in Orthodoxy. I’ve never really heard him state his opinions on the matter. Such doesn’t dignify his uniqueness as person.

    “I have never met one who would have seriously entertained the possibility that the Theotokos was ever guilty of actual sin.”

    So, what do you take of those Orthodox authors that say she was only sinless after the annunciation or even later?

    “Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of the life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death.” (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God.”)

    This is my point Al. It is an open question in Orthodoxy, some can hold to the personal sinless position, some hold to it at a later date in her life. So please, stop with the self-righteous proclamations that you and your kind are somehow super pious christians because you hold to Mary’s absolute sinlessness while others do not. There are other ways to read the texts that your papal presuppositions do not allow you to do.

    Photios


  109. on July 23, 2008 at 6:25 pm diane

    Hear, hear, Fr. Al! Oh my gosh–that quote from St. Silouan is goosebump material,


  110. on July 23, 2008 at 7:00 pm Photios Jones

    A slight correction to above:

    This is not true. I invoke the arguments of Maximus on synergism to show a reductio ad absurdum that the Immaculate Conception is an example of gratia irresistibilis, i.e. that one can be in a “state of grace” apart from motion of their will.


  111. on July 23, 2008 at 7:38 pm evagrius

    I didn’t know that St. John mentioned the Transfiguration.

    Of course, he didn’t mention the Annunciation either.


  112. on July 23, 2008 at 8:36 pm diane

    Photios: Dumb question: Are you in effect saying that your theological arguments preclude the mere possibility that the IC is true? IOW: Is your take on Maximos et al. demonstrably and irrefutably the true one? Is your interpretation irrefutably correct? Or to put it another way: Do you (qua theologian) enjoy the charism of infallibility?

    I ask this quite sincerely, as ISTM yo uare in effect saying: THIS is the Truth(tm) about synergism; therefore the IC cannot possibly true. So, even if Our Lady appeared to you and said “I am the Immaculate Conception,” you’d respond, “No you’re not; you can’t possibly be,” whereupon you would trot out the arguments you’ve presented above….

    (I would love to be the fly on the grotto wall during such a scene, needless to say!)


  113. on July 23, 2008 at 10:56 pm james g

    I’m coming to this a couple of days late. I have some points I want to make regarding things John (Ad Orientum) has said.

    …the overwhelming majority of the world’s Roman Catholics do NOT believe that she died a natural death.

    It may be only anecdotal but I do not personally know any Catholics who think the Virgin Mary did not die, or at least I am unaware of knowing any. You made the assertion, you need to back it up with evidence. By-the-by the Feast of the Assumption is still celebrated in the West; same feast as the Dormition.

    No matter how the theologians parse its meaning the fact is that ordinary churchgoers read “and from the Son…” and naturally assume a double procession.

    That’s another assertion totally lacking in evidence. Now maybe you think that when you read “and the Son” but you ‘taint everybody. When I first learned that the Orthodox had a problem with “and the Son” I couldn’t understand why because when I read the objections I kept thinking, “That’s not what ‘and the Son’ means.” I can still remember what I thought “and the Son” meant as a child (good memory and all). As a child I thought that “the Father and the Son” was one because they are One in the Trinity. One God, one-in-being (consubstantial being the literal translation), one principle. I did not assume that the Holy Spirit “proceeded” (whatever that meant, as a child) from two causes; from the Father and the Son separately because the Father and the Son are not separate they are One. I mean, it just makes sense because the next line is “With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.” – that is together as One in the Trinity. Now maybe I’m smarter than the average bear but if I parsed it correctly as a child then why can’t anybody?

    James G


  114. on July 23, 2008 at 11:21 pm james g

    Now “death” as a result of the Fall. Yes, Death entered with sin but exactly which kind of death? Was it simply mortality or was it more, the death of the soul in separation from God. In baptism we are cleansed from spiritual death, that separation from God healed by sanctifying grace. At the same time we are not cleansed from mortality.

    Was mortality originally man’s lot? Was Adam created immortal? That is, was his material body originally destined to never die and decay? I don’t know. Now maybe the Fathers and the Saints and all the orthodox (and Orthodox) theologians have taught that Adam was originally created immortal and it is a dogma of the faith. I must confess my ignorance because I have not studied the subject. However, if it is not dogmatic that Adam (and Eve) was originally created immortal then is it not possible that the Death that became man’s lot was not primarily physical death but spiritual death?

    Maybe I’m being all “Protestant” in basing my thought on a personal interpretation of the Bible but why was it necessary that man be expelled from the Garden lest we eat from the Tree of Life? Foreshadowing of the Son aside, could not the Tree of Life be what was to sustain Adam’s life eternally? Is it not possible that mortality was part of man’s nature before the Fall but attenuated because of Adam’s access to the Tree of Life in the Garden? Was immortality man’s original nature or was it a consequence of living in God’s grace in the Garden?

    If mortality was part of man’s original nature only muted by unfettered access to the Tree of Life, would it not then be consistent for Mary to be cleansed from the spiritual death that resulted from the fall but still subject to natural mortality? Just a thought; speculating out loud. If I’m completely wrong then I am happy to be corrected.

    James G


  115. on July 23, 2008 at 11:35 pm james g

    Orthodox theology on the other hand is not based on philosophy nor is the conceptual content of philosophy theology’s hand-maiden.

    I’m always confused by statements like this. Is not philosophy just a way of organizing thoughts? Were not the dogmas of the Ecumenical Councils defined in philosophical terms? Was not the Eastern Church the philosopher-theologians par excellence of the first Christian millennium? When did the East abandon philosophy?

    James G


  116. on July 23, 2008 at 11:47 pm evagrius

    Jim G- You’ve expressed what I’ve often thought about regarding death.

    It seems to me that life and death, ( that is “natural life and death”, form one whole. That certainly seems to be a fact if what the biological sciences hold as fact is taken into consideration.

    I think Adam and Eve were created as “mortal”. They would have lived their normal lives and died just as every other creature of flesh and blood. However, if they had not sinned, that death would have been painless and a transformation of soul and body into a glorious state through the grace of God.

    It didn’t happen that way and instead we face the pain of death, the separation of soul and body etc;.


  117. on July 24, 2008 at 2:41 am diane

    “Separation of Soul and Body.” Completely off-topic, but that’s the name of a very beautiful piece pf music by Turlogh O’Carolan, a famous Irish harpist of the 17th-18th century. :-) Sorry, but everything reminds me of either music or literature. :)


  118. on July 24, 2008 at 2:45 am diane

    Was not the Eastern Church the philosopher-theologians par excellence of the first Christian millennium?

    Absolutely correct, as my Byxantinist husband never tires of pointing out. The claim that Orthodox theology is completely free of the “taint” of philosophy is absurd beyond belief.


  119. on July 24, 2008 at 11:36 am Sophocles

    James G and Diane,

    “Orthodox theology on the other hand is not based on philosophy nor is the conceptual content of philosophy theology’s hand-maiden.”

    I’m always confused by statements like this. Is not philosophy just a way of organizing thoughts? Were not the dogmas of the Ecumenical Councils defined in philosophical terms? Was not the Eastern Church the philosopher-theologians par excellence of the first Christian millennium? When did the East abandon philosophy?

    The confusion comes in that when you come across these statements is that it is not always explained by us Orthodox what is meant exactly.

    To understand the statement you have to understand the “framework” or “worldview” from within which we speak out to you.

    Yes, the entire Orthodox Catholic Church of the First Millenium had (and has-they are still with us) those of philosophic genius which when a heresy arose(take your pick which one), the exact words were necessary to as fully explicate the Faith of the Church which if the heresy were allowed to take root (uncontested) , a distorted version of the Faith would establish itself thereby obscuring the Icon of the Divine Persons in whatever ramifications the heresy as a disease to the Faith were allowed to remain. And if that were to happen, the (very real)danger of salvation itself-union with Christ, as He was “framed” and known by the Church would be lost.

    Of course, those propagating their heresies were not dullards in the intelligence sense, and to combat the hersey a defense had to be raised which of coursed involved words and the exact phrasing and use(which words exactly to employ) was critical in these times of the Church’s survival. The defenders of the Faith simply used that which was at hand, philosophy, for a very specific end, the combatting of said heresy

    What we Orthodox have in mind(roughly) when making such statements as the one you are questioning is the belief that Rome since after the Ecumenical Councils where we Orthodox have felt the need to explicate the Faith(keep in mind here that the Councils arose primarily, actually in a sense only as “antibodies” to the disease of the heresy afflicting the health of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church-entire One Church:East/West-and Her Faith ended, and after the separation between East and West, Rome continued developing her doctrine along the lines of philosophical thought but in the sense that, almost of having councils for the sake of having councils.

    As well, the West rediscovered Hellenism and began the dialectical approach to the reasoning on matters of the Church.

    This is a rough overview and it is much more involved then this of course.(and it is really late right now)


  120. on July 24, 2008 at 12:01 pm diane

    Dear Sophocles: I suspect that few historians would accept your take on history at face value. With all due respect and deference.


  121. on July 24, 2008 at 1:02 pm Fr M Kirby

    Photios,

    You said: “And here we get to the key distinctions about person and nature. Let’s start with some questions. Is concupiscence rooted in the natural will(Nature) or is it proper to the mode of willing(Person)? And then, how does this relate to Fallen and Unfallen modes of willing?”

    Concupiscence has affected the whole of humanity, and I do not accept a distinction an uncorrupted and corrupted will in the human person after the Fall. Such a subtle distinction is not clearly taught in Scripture and is not necessitated by the patristic consensus. I will come back to the distinction between “natural” and “Fallen” below.

    ” “Jesus is the Redeemer and Healer of Sin, not the redeemed and healed, even in his human nature considered distinctly. So, his human nature was incorrupt in that sense.”

    To think that Christ inherited and had a perfect human nature incorruptible is the heresy of aphthartodocetism. I don’t think you want to say this. ”

    Not only do I not want to say this, I did not say this. Please note the qualifying phrases “of Sin” and “in that sense” in the section you quoted.

    “If a person, Mary or anyone else, can be placed into a “state of grace” (which is a formation of habit mind you) apart from and removed from a co-operative will, this differs from gratia irresistibilis, how?

    …

    This is begging the question since I deny such a thing as Original Righteousness. What Adam had was the ability to be righteous or unrighteous, mortal or immortal. This is because created hypostasis have a beginning, and hold fast to motion til the end is attained, and they still move even after the end is had. Resting-motion to put this in Maximimus’ terms is a property of the nature. So, Adam had “righteousness” as dynamis, the capacity for, but he was not in a “state of grace.” A “state of grace” is dependent on the formation of habit, which is dependent on doing something, which depends on recapitulating the divine power that God created you with. Renewing it as your own.

    And as a reductio and to assume your view for the moment, to say that Original Sin is the absence of Original Righteousness is tantamount to saying that “nature” is evil or sinful in the absence of grace. ”

    First, you have confused grace that is sufficient and (at the time of “gracing”) efficient with intrinsically irresistible grace. Irresistible grace is defined as grace that can not and thus will not be be opposed by an active will but automatically informs that will so it is cooperative. While Augustinians and Thomists may want to propose this of all graces given to Mary, others in the West would not consider this necessary. If a person does not yet have a will then that is no reason they cannot receive “sanctifying grace”, i.e., the immediate effect on the person’s human nature of Uncreated Grace and its special indwelling under the New Covenant. This grace is irresistible only in the sense that it cannot be resisted until a functioning will is formed. However, it is not necessary to posit that that grace is of such a character that it “imposes” itself on the will once it is activated. So, there is nothing wrong with saying that the sanctifying grace given to Mary ab initio was effectual, but potentially resistible in and of itself. Which is precisely why her later choices, especially the “fiat”, are still truly free, praiseworthy and rewarded by God.

    Second, since it is an ecumenically Catholic doctrine that infants incapable of properly free choices regarding faith or other moral matters receive sanctifying grace (i.e., are really changed into “sons (or daughters) in the Son”) in baptism, it is not true that being in a state of grace requires willed cooperation. “State of grace” means what it says: we are in a state, possessing natures, that have characteristics caused by and compatible with the ongoing favour of God, which is active within us by Uncreated Grace. None of that requires requires a cooperative will unless the will is both properly formed and able to function. Up to that point God is quite capable of “informing” the nature of that human person to the extent and in the way appropriate to that nature’s level of development (including any potential or proto-will). Once the will is engaged by us as personal subjects, then we are obliged to cooperate with the grace already given so as to keep it. (But even for those with functioning wills, it is grace that comes first before any cooperation or synergy in order to make such synergy possible in the first place. To deny this is to fall directly into the Pelagian heresy. For those who believe in irresistible grace, such irresistible grace not only enables but guaranteees the resulting subsequent cooperation. Others say that grace is always sufficient to allow cooperation by the will, but is, in terms of its final outcome, effectual conditionally, upon the consent of the will.) So, a state of grace is NOT absolutely dependent on us doing anything unless and until we are capable of doing so. Being in God’s favour and being renewed within can precede our functioning will and acts of will, though these states of being will not persist subsequent to the active presence of the will without cooperation. Do not Scripture and Tradition unite in asserting the possibility of real and ontological sanctification of even the unborn?

    Finally, you have confused two separate senses of the word “nature”. Originally, Man was in a right relationship with God, and given the supernatural benefits/graces within him of that relationship. That supernatural aspect to his mode of living also ensured the proper internal relationships of soul and body, reasoning and emotions, will and desire. And this was “NATURAL” to him in the sense that it was how humanity was intended to be and to function by God. Teleologically natural. But once the relationship with God was broken and the initial grace (in the sense of both divine favour and its effects within him) rejected, spiritual death resulted (i.e., one might say the”divine” aspect of Man’s existential reality was lost) and Man was left “to himself” or “to his own devices”, so to speak. This also meant the disintegration of those previously healthy internal relationships abovenmentioned in his own nature. In other words, Man became “merely” natural, if we take natural to mean the created human reality when disconnected from God, from the supernatural. So, if we understand “natural” to mean the created, physical and animal or “carnal” human reality as separated from “supernature”, then the Fall leaves Man “merely natural” and thus subject to concupiscence. And, yes, that means Adam was not “naturally” immortal in any “scientific” or intrinsic sense (which a number of Fathers admitted, as I understand it). But, and here is my deliberately paradoxical point, it is not (teleologically) natural for humanity to be (merely) natural. We were designed to be perpetually open to and dependent upon God.

    P.S. It is only fair that I note that as a scientist I consider this approach to be, as well as within the range of permissible patristic and Catholic opinion, most conformable to modern anthropology. When scientists say that much human evil is explicable as an evolutionary “hang-over” from animal origins, and theologians say it is due to the Fall, they can both be right if we take the above view, as well as asserting (on the basis of Revelation) that, on becoming human in the spiritual sense, our hominid ancestors enjoyed a brief and localised harmony with God that they very soon disrupted. I say on the basis of Revelation because such a spatially and temporally limited Eden-experience as implied in Genesis (however interpreted) would leave no geological trace, so to speak.


  122. on July 24, 2008 at 6:06 pm Perry Robinson

    Chaka,

    No, I do not think that I will have to say without DD that Justin or Origen deny outright the divinity of the Son. There is a simple reason why that is the case. They don’t explicitly do so and affirm his divinity explicitly in a number of places. What they struggle with is using Greek philosophical terms and categories to explicate Christian doctrine. So for example, Justin has to speak of Christ as a second deity, but it is obvious from the text that he does not want to say this in an unqualified manner. The problem is that the philosophical categories won’t permit him to distinguish between person and nature in such a away that allows for the plurality of the former within a singular nature. Later on via Origen and Lucian, Arius had a choice-either to distinguish the Son as a creature and a distinct person or face the absorption of the Son into the Father in a modalistic way, making not only the Son deity but the world as well. Either all relations were intrinsic and essential (because essences were simple) or all relations were extrinsic and contingent.

    If the line demarcating say Bernard and Thomas from Protestant theologians is that the former only appear to deny that the Theotokos was conceived in a state of grace whereas the latter deny it, I’d claim that this is simply not the case. Just read what Bernard for example says. It is explicit. It certainly looks like an outright denial, rather than an articulation of a theory which could appear to implicitly deny the IC. Further, the comparison should be Orthodox theologians and not Protestant theologians. And if the line were that Protestants thought it was possible for her to sin whereas the scholastics, then you have just put Protestants in the same category as people like Basil, Chrysostom, Cyril and probably Ambrose as well. And it is a very bad idea to generalize with the scholastics and so I’d wager that your claim that the scholastics thought that the Theotokos was incapable of sin is probably false in at least once instance, if not more.

    I don’t think that Vicent’s view of DD is the same as Newman’s. And further, Vincent’s entire theory was constructed to refute Augustine’s predestinarianism. As for the OT, that isn’t doctrinal development but rather progressive revelation. The two are not the same. And I have argued with more JW’s at my door than you can possibly imagine. Just ask the (now former) chief apologist of the Watchtower, Greg Stafford, whom I have known off and on for well over a decade.


  123. on July 24, 2008 at 6:53 pm Perry Robinson

    Fr. Kirby,

    The distinction between a fallen and pre-fallen gnomic will is a significant part of Maximus’ teaching and a part of his refutation of Monothelitism. It also has the added benefit of staving off objections to Christian belief in contemporary philosophy of religion. And we’d argue the gnomic will can be found in scripture expressed with sufficient clarity as well as many Fathers both before and after Maximus.
    If there is a distinction between sufficient and efficient with intrinsically irresistible grace, then a few questions answered would be helpful. What needs to be added to the former conceptually to get the latter? Which did the Theotokos have? And who has the latter, if anyone? Further, if the Theotokos has only the former but not the latter, then how would it be the case that it was impossible for her to sin?

    It is somewhat troubling and confusing to me that you speak of someone not having a will. Perhaps you mean that they haven’t employed their will or are not an age when they can do so. Some clarification here would be helpful. The structure you propose in any case at the end of the day still seems to leave it possible for the Theotokos to sin since effectual sanctifying grace is resistible. I am not clear on why this could not be done for everyone though if it is given apart from volitional activity of the agent and is gratuitous.

    As for characteristics caused in us by uncreated grace, I think we’d reject the idea that they are something other than uncreated. Part of what is at work here is a different understanding of the relation of cause to effect or rather if there are “effects” properly speaking at all. And a further worry would be are these “characteristics” virtues or no? If no, what are they? If yes, then aren’t we right back to the worry concerning virtue being had apart from volitional activity?

    If the initial grace is not determinative, then I can’t see how election to glory doesn’t go out the window. And I can’t see how it is compatible with the condition on free will of alternative possibilities as well as sourcehood. I’d view the initial grace you speak of as being secured in the incarnation so that the will of all is put in a new position. The imago dei then supplies us with the initial grace. Obviously this will cut across a strong nature/grace distinction, which is in part the way I see it, without falling into Pelagianism. This is why Maximus speaks of virtues as “natural things.”

    As for supernatural gifts to Adam, we deny the doctrine of Original Righteousness following the gloss given by Theophilus of Antioch for example. Adam was created neither righteous nor evil, but innocent. As for teleology, we’d see that as the logoi of human nature, which is Christ. Christ is the image in whom we are made. This is why the incarnation enjoys independence from the fall. The temptation of the devil was in response to the divine intention to become incarnate and not the other way around. The devil is trying to stop the Incarnation and thwart the divine will. If the telos is a constituent of the logoi or imago dei, then “grace” is never lost, but only the means to accomplish, rather than will, righteousness. (Rom 7) We both then believe in an initial grace, we seem to view it differently.


  124. on July 24, 2008 at 7:16 pm diane

    “Epo, se muove.”

    Nonetheless, the Theotokos was immaculate from the moment of her conception.

    Period.

    Diane, slicer of Gordian knots ;)


  125. on July 24, 2008 at 7:42 pm Perry Robinson

    Diane,

    Simply fist pounding and asserting the contrary isn’t going to prove your claims. Second, it isn’t ecumenical. Third, it doesn’t meet people where they are at and consequently isn’t a manifesation of any kind of spirit oriented towards reconciliation. I’d take your cue from Fr. Kirby.


  126. on July 24, 2008 at 7:54 pm Photios Jones

    To build somewhat on Perry here:

    I’m very troubled by this notion that contingent persons do not have a will at conception and then only to gain the status of a will at some arbitrary point in time (i.e. the age of reason, and being a person is not dependent on some arbitrary age of “devlopment” because there is no final static stasis of “development” even in the Eschaton). This is the danger I think of not thinking Christologically first as your starting point and paradigm. Per Maximus, there is ‘no time’ that a created person ceases or does not move, and movement for him involves the employment of the will which is rooted as a natural faculty of every hypostasis (which is something you have at conception, because Christ does). He says, “No created being, ever, in any manner, stands fast while being moved by [its] natural power towards the End proper to that power; neither does it cease from the energy proper to that End, [even] after it is fixed up on it.” (Ambigua 7 PG 91:1073B) If we were to regress our life, every step of the stage and ever “age” of our development the choices we made then always seem somewhat trivial to where we are now. However, did we not make choice and employ our wills as toddlers, when we were in elementary school, as a teenager, high school? And do not our choices that we made then at those times seem barely comprehensible at the time they were made? I deny that employment of the will is solely on this static age of consciousness that somehow makes you a ‘willer,’ for consciousness is something that is dynamic it is developed. And this is the function of the gnomic will. The Awareness that I have now is not the awareness I’ll have when I’m 50 or 60 or older, or in the Eschaton, which in some ways looking back from that fulcrum I may look like a toddler now. Such is the same way I view infants and their personal mode of willing however very simple it might be.

    Photios


  127. on July 24, 2008 at 8:20 pm Photios Jones

    Diane,

    Am I infallible? Of course not. The issue isn’t about me. It’s about things far greater than me.

    From where I stand (to sound a little bit like Luther for the moment) and how I see the implications of accepting the IC and all that it stands for, I would see myself giving up Maximian Christology and the men who made it possible like Cyril of Alexandria, Emperor Justinian, the men at the 4th and 5th Councils, and most importantly the 6th Council which is the codification of Maximus’ view and his refutation made that Council possible.

    Photios


  128. on July 24, 2008 at 8:26 pm diane

    It’s about things far greater than me.

    But…do you not see how much you sound like a Calvinist or fundamentalist, insisting on the perspicuity of Scripture?

    Holy Tradition is no more perspicuous than Scripture. How do you know that your interpretation of it is correct?


  129. on July 24, 2008 at 8:42 pm Perry Robinson

    Diane,

    Where is the perspecuity of scripture mentioned or implied by anything Daniel wrote above?

    Meeting the conditions on knowledge isn’t the same thing as meeting the conditions on making normative statements. I can do the first without being able to the second.

    If this wasn’t true then you wouldn’t be able to know that Rome was right or the pope was infallible.


  130. on July 24, 2008 at 8:45 pm Photios Jones

    I stand with what John Chrysostom said here:

    “All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain. But because ye are hearers for pleasure’s sake, for that reason also you seek these things. For tell me, with what pomp of words did Paul speak? and yet he converted the world. Or with what the unlettered Peter? But I know not, you say, the things that are contained in the Scriptures. Why? For are they spoken in Hebrew? Are they in Latin, or in foreign tongues? Are they not in Greek? But they are expressed obscurely, you say: What is it that is obscure? Tell me.” — NPNF Series I, Vol. VIII, p.383, St. John Chrysostom Homily III on 2nd epistle to the Thessalonians


  131. on July 24, 2008 at 10:28 pm Eirenikon Editor

    In terms of hits, this post has been the most popular ever on Eirenikon. I have very much enjoyed reading through the civil debate. Thank you all!

    I am closing the combox, not because it’s out of control, but because I think the debate has pretty much run its course.

    Dr William Tighe has kindly posted me a rare article by Archimandrite Lev Gillet on the Immaculate Conception, which I will post as soon as I receive it.



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