The Anastasis Project and Byzantine, Texas both report that Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan Nicholae (Corneanu) of Banat recently received Holy Communion from the hand of Romanian Greek-Catholic Bishop Alexandru (Mesian) of Lugoj, at the consecration of a Romanian Greek-Catholic parish in Timisoara.
Catholic World News broke the story.
I shudder in anticipation of Orthodox responses. Doamne miluieşte.
In other Romanian Catholic news, De unione ecclesiarum reports that Holy Resurrection Monastery in Newberry Springs, California, has decided to move to a new property in western New Jersey. May God bless and prosper the monks.
I await the onslaught as well.
God willing something good will come from all this, but will just have to wait and see.
In Christ,
+FrG
As do I.
When I first read about this my first thought was “Its going to hit the fan.” I suspect that while I type this up, comments in comboxes around the blogosphere are getting filled with some angry denunciations.
I am reminded of some convert clergy of the Antiochian Church in the US who raised quite a ruckus when they arrived in the mother land and noted that Melkites, Maronites and Oriental Catholics in mixed marriages to Antiochian Orthodox were routinely approaching the chalice at Antiochian parishes. As newly-minted converts with chrism oil that was not yet dry, they knew far better and raised quite a stink. I am loathe to think of what would happen if any of them became aware of instances of concelebration… (I hope they don’t go looking!)
Fr. Z. has one irate Catholic fulminating over the incident, but otherwise, the Catholic response seems cautiously positive, which is my personal attitude. Sure, it’s not appropriate but neither was Jesus’ interruption of the stoning of the woman caught in adultery. Not that we should go all hippie and carefree with the law of the Church, but sometimes reconciliation requires inspired acts and gestures. Would that there were more Orthodox eager to work toward unity.
BTW, apparently this is the same Orthodox bishop who wanted to return to the Catholic Church all lands confiscated by the government in 1948 and then given to the Orthodox. He seems a truly kind, compassionate and generous man in the image of Christ.
As one who was baptized and lived quite a few years under the the jurisdiction of Metropolitan Nicolae, I am not surprised by this gesture at all. Years ago many Orthodox were saying that he already had the cardinal’s hat in his wardrobe.
If he wants to become catholic, that’s fine.
I only hope that he is not trying to bring the entire Metropolis of Banat “in full communion with the successor of Peter” as it is said in the catholic language.
I wish some of our bishops would think before they act. The confusion that is caused for the faithful on both sides is really difficult to handle. As a parish priest I have to follow the current legislation, and then this situation takes place and the laity wonder why I take a contrary view. It is not up to me to judge a Bishop, but I expect them to at least give me a well thought out and proper explanation, in light of the fact that I am expected to follow the canons.
I only hope that he is not trying to bring the entire Metropolis of Banat “in full communion with the successor of Peter” as it is said in the catholic language.
LOL…would that be the fate worse than death?
;)
Diane
This is unfortunate. That said I would caution against overreacting or reading too much into this. As far as I can tell this was a breach of discipline for both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox. Presumably some sort of explanation will be requested by the Holy Synod. In the meantime it would be best if there were a suspension of judgment pending that explanation.
Christ is risen!
John
If it’s worse than death or not, I do not know, or particularly care about.
I, as a spiritual son of that Metropolitan see, although not that Archbishopric, only want that our “Mitropolia Banatului” stays within the communion and canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Church.
We, the Romanians from those places, have always been Orthodox and at many times, our ancestors have suffered from this at the hands of the Catholics.
I wish Catholics only good.
CNI, I had my tongue in my cheek not because I do not appreciate your POV (I do, really), but rather because I can’t help wondering about the bigger picture.
There’s this thing out there called Radical Militant Islam. And it poses a far, far bigger threat to Christians of any stripe than intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox will ever pose.
Same goes for the threat of atheistic, materialistic secularism.
If we Christians don’t get our act together and start cooperating, rather than fighting and bickering, there won’t be much of a Christian civilization left to defend.
I happen to think this intercommunion incident was a Good Thing. But even if I didn’t, I would say, “Please, let’s put it in perspective.” We Catholics and Orthodox face far bigger issues than this one!
Just my two drachmas, fwiw…..
[…] May 29, 2008 by Eirenikon Editor Fr Paul, the English Catholic priest who has left many thoughtful comments both at Cathedra Unitatis and here at Eirenikon, has written a remarkable post over at De unione ecclesiarum on the ecclesiological, ecumenical and sacramental implications of the “Timisoara Incident”. […]
What is the connection historically between the Romanian Orthodox and the Romanian Greek Catholic churches?
This is a beautiful and great thing.
Alice- To answer your question somewhat, it is currently more friendly than in most places; when John Paul II visited Romania the Orthodox were very welcoming to him.
However, in the past there have been hard feelings, as the Orthodox poster above notes. For what it is worth, it has cut both ways. For example, the communists after WWII gave most of the Greek Catholic parishes to the Orthodox, and many have not been returned.
Most Romanian Catholics would describe persecution at the hands of the Orthodox, often in cahoots with the Marxists.
But if I understand Orthodox ecclesiology correctly- and I am not sure I do- isn’t this bishop free to do this? I mean if there is no authority, save that of an Ecumenical Council, higher than a bishop, can he not decide for himself with whom he will be in communion?
And I have seen firsthand other instances of Orthodox/Catholic intercommunion, at the hands of a bishop…
No he is not free to break with the tradition of the church without other Bishops breaking Communion with him. Granted in times of persecution, the relationship with Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have accomodated sacramental communion, such as in the former Soviet Union. But then I would not get too bent out of shape over this incident unless it becomes a frequent practice, then it is up to the Patriarchate to reslove the matter.
I’ll repeat something I said elsewhere…
At first I thought it was not a good idea for him to break the normal discipline, but in retrospect I changed my mind. It may take individual actions like this to take us out of the complacency of accepting the schism.
I’m also glad to see an Orthodox hierarch standing up and taking responsibility for the complicity in the shameful treatment of the Greek Catholics during the communist period. Something a number of Orthodox hierarchs still need to come to terms with and own up to.
Father Gregory, bless!
Forgive me, I am an ignorant sinner. But I really don’t understand why a bishop is not free to determine for himself and his flock with whom to maintain communion. You appeal to “the tradition of the church”, without saying who determines what that tradition is.
At the same time, your homepage has an icon of the Trinity as Old Man, Christ, and Dove, which as an iconographer I understand violates every ancient canon regarding tradition.
I understand that iconographic tradition is mostly oral, but this particular canon is from the Second Nicene Council, acknowledged by both East and West, and violated by both.
“There’s this thing out there called Radical Militant Islam. And it poses a far, far bigger threat to Christians of any stripe than intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox will ever pose.”
Diane,
Islam is not a threat to the Church. If they kill us we become martyrs and our prayers are stronger than ever. If they torture us we become confessors and we please God. But dilution of the faith by communing with heretics, or even by thinking there is not a real and meaningful difference between the Orthodox any other groups that calls themselves Christian is a threat.
Daniel,
The rule of thumb is that when you commune with a community, you belong to that household of Faith. While the Roman Church does allow for Orthodox to receive, it is on occasion, rather than as the usual practice. Orthodox Bishops must maintain communion with the historic Episcopate of the Orthodox Church; like priests they too can and have been suspended and deposed by their respective Patriarchate or Holy Synod of Bishops. While sacramentally the Church is complete with the Bishop and the clergy and people gathered together Eucharistically, juridically the intercommunion and recognition by the rest of the Church is what determines their canonical status. To be in Communion with a Bishop who is out of Communion with the Orthodox Church has a name, Schism, which is as serious a sin as heresy when initiated by a hierarch. Those who are born into a Schism are not judged in the same manner. Having said that it is not up to me or you to either praise or condemn the Romanian Hierarch for his action, but rather for His Patriarch and brother bishops to handle the matter.
We need to be careful not to make statements that run contrary to the Magisterium of our respective Churches, Romqn Catholic or Orthodox. We are not Protestant Congregationalists, our selves being the recipient of the Petrine/Apostolic office. The issue of the form of the icon of the Trinity is not on the same par. I don’ believe that the form you refer to was actually condemned by an ecumenical council as was the portrayal of Christ as the Agnus Dei , but my memory might be faulty on that matter.
Daniel,
O Kyrios!
Have you read THE ORTHODOX CHURCH, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware? I don’t know your level of theological training, hence my question to you. He does a rather thorough job in answering your question with reference to the role of a Bishop and the communion with other Bishops.
Daniel,
O Kyrios!
I did some checking and found out that only a local council or 2 condemned the Trinity Ikon in question, whereas the 7th Ecumenical Council condemned the use of the Agnus Dei because it was leading to the worship of lambs. So often we must judge matters within the historical context in order to see the reasons behind Church teachings.
“Islam is not a threat to the Church. If they kill us we become martyrs and our prayers are stronger than ever. If they torture us we become confessors and we please God.”
The risk of disobeying the whole “Go ye therefore and teach” sentiments of the Great Commission being what they are, however true it is about the prayers of the martyrs, I still find this model somewhat lacking. May the prayers of the martyrs lead to deathbead conversion of every Muslim… I won’t relegate growth to their efforts. We have work to do on our part…
“But dilution of the faith by communing with heretics, or even by thinking there is not a real and meaningful difference between the Orthodox any other groups that calls themselves Christian is a threat.”
Where are these heretics and what are the heresies they evince? What ecumenical councils have occured in the Orthodox Church to roundly condemn them?
Inasmuch as there is wide and generous latitude in approaches to non-Orthodox thought among the many schools out there, I do get somewhat nervous and suspicous of those who are so adamnant in their polemics.
It what I thought was pure and Golden Providence in high school, I started attending my Greek Catholic Granny’s Church with her at almost the very same time I started dating an Antiochian Orthodox girl. Marriage bells were sounding in the mind of the 16 year old that I was to be sure! Ahh young love.
That as the case may be, I was of the thinking that I should leave the Catholic Church and was preparing to become Orthodox while safely away at college… Over the duration of the year or two ahead of me, I resolved to read everything I could about Orthodoxy to be an excellent and perfect “ready made convert” when the time came. So I started reading, and reading, and reading. There was not a day that went by when some book or catalog, newsletter or quarterly did not come in the mail…
But in the course of reading everything from Saint Vladimir’s Press to the Holy Orthodox Church in North America I became somewhat concearned over which jurisdiction’s competing and differing theologies of reception of Catholics would be what I needed. The OCA parish I took instruction in was prepared to go with simple chrismation, my friend who did enter the ROCOR was actually baptized anew… The theologies offered by my instructor varied sharply from his.
Consider the widely divergent points of view, positions and histories of reception of Catholic priests which vary from rebaptism and ordaining them new to simple vesting…. In 1929 the Patriarch of Constantinople recieved en masse a group of disaffected, rosary-totin’, Roman-cassock wearing, first communion celebrating (to this day!) Rusyn Greek Catholic monsignori with the simple fiat of a pen stroke… The American Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Orthodox Diocese was formed. No talk of re-baptism, ordination, even chrismation occured. It simply happened and they are now Orthodox.
Someone like +KALLISTOS (Ware) who has done a yeoman’s work in introducing hundreds of thousands of non-Orthodox to the Orthodox Churches (and gets much respect from me for his efforts) is still writing at first as one man, later as an archbishop… And however comprehensive the later editions of his books have or have not been, there is no turning to his venerable tome as the definative end-all, be-all Q&A book some approach it as. Never mind the radically different approaches he offers on “The Orthodox Opinion on Artificial Birth Control” which finds earliest and latest editions espousing two radically different positions…
So when it comes to decrying the heretics and heresies of the west, whose approach and discernment exactly is authoratative?
asimplesinner,
I can readily appreciate your consternation in dealing with the varying Orthodox opinions, just as I sympathize with my Roman catholic brothers who are shocked by the gulf between what Rome teaches, and what is going on many dioceses and the local church. Personally I believe that Orthodoxy and Rome are in an un-natural position. Our history for the first 1000 years was that of one church organization. I do believe that their is a mourning that we experience as the schism continues, frankly because we really need one another. But we must in genuine love be patient to allow our church leaders forge a reunion that is agreeable to the Holy Spirit. In the meantime may we be gentle in our words and actions as we await the day of full reconciliation.
Recently on a program called OCTAVA DIES, I saw a segment in which the Melkite Patriarch of Antioch was received by the Pope. Unlike how other bishops kiss his ring, both successors of St. Peter greeted each other with the kiss of peace, and the mutual kissing of hands. Brick by brick— Far better that the day when Patriarch Gregory Joseph was taken to see Pius IX, and was thrown on his knees in order to kiss the Pope’s foot. We are truly making progress.
Father Gregory, bless!
I have read the book you ask about, though it has been a long time.
As for depicting the Father, there is a long tradition against it; note that the 7th Council omits Him as a subject. As He is incomprehensible He is unportrayable. The Hospitality of Abraham icon is the only Orthodox depiction of the Trinity.
As for the juridical questions you raise, I join Simple Sinner in protesting that it is not that clear; are there not instances of Orthodox jurisdictions being in communion with the EP and also with other jurisdictions which are not in communion with him, and the other “canonical” churches? I am an outsider, a Byzantine Catholic, but it seems that Orthodoxy does not possess anything like the clear and simple juridical standards of the Catholic communion.
And there is no consensus regarding those outside Orthodoxy; some call brothers whom you call heretics.
Matt
your name-calling may make you feel better but it is out of place here. Neither you nor I are empowered by Christ to determine who is a true Christian and who merely “call themselves Christian.” It is my understanding that He believes that being His disciple is more about how you treat Him in others (Matt Ch. 25) than about proving your own doctrinal purity by stigmatising others as “heretics”. You would make a more powerful argument in favour of your point of view by adopting more moderate language.
Hiermonk Gregory
youre contributions are an example of how to pursue the discussion with courtesy and mutual respect, and I appreciate that you have put forward the “official” Orthodox judgement of the matter in a serene manner which shows respect for those who disagree. If only the zealots in both our churches would follow suit!
Fr Gregory- Forgive me; I mistakenly attributed the remark about heretics to you. Mea Culpa, as they say in Rome.
Dear Fr. Paul,
Thank you for your comments; we are all beloved of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in Him do we find our salvation.
first communion celebrating (to this day!)
Indeed we do, my daughter had her first confession three weeks ago. I believe the only jurisdictions who do this may be us and the Ukrainians.
AMM – I have a concern with simply saying, “At first I thought it was not a good idea for him to break the normal discipline, but in retrospect I changed my mind. It may take individual actions like this to take us out of the complacency of accepting the schism.” Many Episcopalians (and others) employ the same logic as they purport to “marry” two men.
I believe in working towards unity by jointly searching through the Scriptures, discussing the teachings of the Fathers & working on common social-humanitarian goals. I do not believe in inter-comunion prior to established unity of Faith & official reconciliation of episcopal sees.
Daniel,
Another opinion is drawn from Scripture itself for Christ says when we see him we do see the Father, for He is the exact Ikon of the Father. That is why the Father and the Son are shown with the same features except the white hair, the distinction of persons.
I made the following comment on another blog and I make it again here:
It is my impression that most Catholic and Orthodox don’t feel the pain of separation and the yearning for unity. Why? Many of us are comfortable in our little worlds of pride, power, property, etc. I find it odd that there is so little commentary on the Metropolitan being one of the only Romanian Orthodox bishops who admitted his cooperation with the communists and one of the only Orthodox bishops calling for the return of church property taken from the Greek Catholics. Certainly the Metropolitan is a man of courage even if some think it’s misplaced.
Father Gregory, bless; Yes, that is the logic behind the depiction of the Ancient of Days, where the preincarnate Christ is portrayed as an old man in white. However, this is not the depiction of the Father, who is incomprehensible. The Ancient of Days is always shown with the cross and the Greek inscription for “I Am: (WON) on His halo.
This happens, by the way, to be my pet peeve. It is an ancient prohibiton, and widely disregarded, from the ceiling of the Sistine chapel to many Russian cathedrals…
Daniel
I agree with your basic point about iconography. I think it is good that there are purists like you to recall to us that none of us is good in fact at appreciating fully the logic of our own tradition. I have a hunch that if East and West had been more true each to themselves, they would have been more understanding of each other.
When I learnt that Orthodox Old Calendarists regard the icon of the Holy Trinity as heretical, I reflected that at last I could agree with them on somethin.g (One must allow for their tendancy to bandy about the “H” word too much – let’s take it as hyperbole for rhetorical purposes. It’s easier to tolerate the exagerated use of the word when it is not directed at persons!) The fact that it originated in copying Western art highlights a problem we westerners have. From some time in the Middle ages religious art in our tradition became a matter of aesthetics. Music and the pictorial and plastic arts in Church came to be seen as catechetical, as evocative of sentiment, and in the end even as purely decorative. The delayed-action result has been the triumph of sentimentality and subjectivism observable in contemporary Catholic worship.
The Orthodox approach, based on the perception that sacred iconography and liturgical music are sacramental expressions of the mystery, which bring heaven down to earth and lift the earth up to heaven, is not merely correct theologically. Since it is at the same time superbly effective at engaging the human heart and mind, it is a living proof that grace does not abolish nature, but that it heals nature and elevates it. Maybe the fact that the Orthodox Chuh never failed to express this truth in its liturgy helped prevent it undergoing the crisis of the Reformation, when grace and nature were falsely opposed.
We have come some way from the subject of this post! However, I think that this is a good example of how we need each other, and how we can and must learn from each other. I believe looking eastward will be an essential part of the Catholic Church overcoming its present liturgical débacle, which is such a potent source of scandal even for well-disposed Orthodox when they look at the Latin Church today. As for what Orthodox might learn from us, that is for them to say…
Fr Paul, bless!
Yes, sometimes I look at the contemporary Roman Catholic Church and ask myself “Why would anyone want to be in communion with that“.
But then I reflect on the moral authority of the papacy, which really has become a voice for all true Christians, and I realize the Orthodox would gain something as well. Not to mention a juridical framework that is clear and simple…
Your words on the Divine Liturgy, iconography and sacred music are very eloquent; well said, Father.
AMM – I have a concern with simply saying, “At first I thought it was not a good idea for him to break the normal discipline, but in retrospect I changed my mind. It may take individual actions like this to take us out of the complacency of accepting the schism.” Many Episcopalians (and others) employ the same logic as they purport to “marry” two men.
Phil, this is certainly a valid argument. I guess ultimately you have to look at the tradition of the church, how it has acted, what has occurred, what is written in scripture and so on to try and decide whether the actions in question have a place in the church or don’t. Hopefully that would help us to discern the difference between the bishop receiving communion and the sacramental joining of two people of the same gender in marriage.
Ultimately the Romanian Synod will decide, not me, the rights and wrongs here (and for the record I am a layman, and I have no theological training whatsoever). Certainly I am cognizant of the fact that any act of Ekonomia (which you can view as either a relaxation/deviation from the rules depending on your perspective), carries the risk that it will itself become the norm or new rule; and that there is a great danger in this. Acts of Ekonomia, big and small, happen all the time however. The church continually walks a line of attempting to adhere to a standard of perfection while existing in a fallen world.
What I don’t want to see happen, which I have in a few places, is this action simply ignite further division and acrimony.
Gosh. I haven’t checked in here in a few days. So, I just did, and I read Matt’s post. Attitudes like his depress the heck out of me. Someone, please reassure me that Matt’s POV is not representative of Orthodox in the Real World. Please.
Diane,
Like you I’ve not checked in here for a few days, but let me try and answer your question.
Yes there are many Orthodox Christians who hold to Matt’s POV in the Real World. Whether that POV accurately reflects the mindset of the Church is another question. And that the answer to this second question is hard to give since I’m not certain what Matt’s POV is.
Certainly a cavalier attitude towards the real difference between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is not consonant with the mindset of the Orthodox Church (or Catholic for that matter). Sadly, there is a tendency among some Orthodox towards relativism, even as there is among some Catholics. So too, both communities have their zealots who confuse what is required for an individual who joins the Church (either Catholic or Orthodox) with what is required to reconcile estranged Churches (and that in the case of the Orthodox/Catholic division is still it seems an open question).
I find in among both Catholic and Orthodox Christians a distressing tendency to compare “our best, to their worst” (or “My Goodness, Your Badness,” as a recent article in The Weekly Standard phrased it). Alas, there is sufficient historical, and even contemporary, evidence that the polemicists can use to justify their position.
That said, I would invite Matt to speak more about his position (and that can be done by email or on my blog)–what I would, however, take note of, is the cavalier manner in which the question of martyrdom was described. A martyr’s death is not something to be discussed lightly–much less should I assume that I am able to die a martyr.
In Christ,
+FrG
I see that Fr. Gregory has failed to heed the earlier discussion on the proper name of the Catholic Church. I can only reach the conclusion that this is an intentional slight–a slight which does not belong in conversation such as this unless the intention is to drive parties further apart. I think an apology is in order.
” can readily appreciate your consternation in dealing with the varying Orthodox opinions, just as I sympathize with my Roman catholic brothers who are shocked by the gulf between what Rome teaches, and what is going on many dioceses and the local church.”
I guess the difference with distinction that kept me a Greek Catholic (mind you I was a practioner of hedonism for a good several years in a lapse) was the fact that when Our Lady of the Suburbs with Father Feelgood and Sister Mary Pantsuit did their kumbaya-cha-cha and went off the deep end, I could turn Romeward (how ultramontaine of me!) and in the end call out their behavior for what it was – dissident.
In preparations to swim the Bosphorus all those years ago, the conflicting opinions presented to me by any given party as “For thus is holy Orthodoxy” were ultimately putting me in a position to weigh them out and decide for myself. If my ROCOR-bound friend needed to be rebaptized, why didn’t I? Why were some Greek Catholics recieved without even chrismation. The smallest of details in the minds of some, to a perfection-seeker (of a sort) this was a great conundrum that ultimately forced me to look at where I thought I was heading, where I thought I was suppose to be leaving, and appreciate where I was.
AMM – agreed.
Peter (#39),
I’m not sure (1) which Fr Gregory you’re referring to (the Hieromonk, or Fr Jensen), and (2) what the offensive words actually were. Could you be more specific?
I believe that Peter (#39) is referring to Hieromonk Gregory (#19) rather than myself. The offensive word is “Roman” as an adjective for the Catholic Church and reflects a comment made on De unione ecclesiarum by James Likoudis.
In Christ,
+FrG
Someone, please reassure me that Matt’s POV is not representative of Orthodox in the Real World.
Unfortunately it does exist, and in the hierarchy as well. Read this from the Metropolitan of Piraeus.
http://www.impantokratoros.gr/Piraeus-Metropolitan.en.aspx
Most people obviously do not share that attitude, but some do.
I do believe Orthodox Christians like myself who would like to see unity are in a distinct minority.
AMM someone sent me the letter from the Metropolitan of Pireaus that you linked to here. You know, I can’t wonder how much credibility to give the voice of anti-ecumenicism (Orthodox or Catholic). In my experience at least, these are not people through whom Christ transforms lives.
In the Orthodox Church the more radical the anti-ecumenicism the more likely the person speaking is himself (and it is almost always “him”) part of a group that has very little to do even with other anti-ecumenical Orthodox Christians.
So are Orthodox Christians like you, and me for that matter, a minority, I don’t really don’t know. I suspect given the amount of inter-marriage between Orthodox Christians and Western Christians of one sort or another that we are not. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part.
In Christ,
+FrG
Father Gregory, bless!
You mean it is an unknown factor, even to an Orthodox priest? No wonder I, born RC, now Byzantine Catholic, am confused. I have been blessed in that the Orthodox I have known face to face have been, one and all, friendly and affirming of what we hold in common.
My experience on the web is quite other.
But what gives me pause is the impression that Mt Athos, the heart of Orthodoxy, seems pretty much hardscrabble anti-Catholic.
No?
Fr. Gregory,
Internet polemicists & modern intermarriages somehow “prove” that the stance of Orthodox saints (& Athonite monks) from centuries past to the modern period is today advocated only by those through whom Christ does not work or transform lives? I respect you too much to say anything more than that I am completely scandalized & confused by this statement.
Fr. Gregory–
“it is alwas a him”–LOL, ain’t that the truth!!!
AMM someone sent me the letter from the Metropolitan of Pireaus that you linked to here. You know, I can’t wonder how much credibility to give the voice of anti-ecumenicism (Orthodox or Catholic). In my experience at least, these are not people through whom Christ transforms lives.
I would not be comfortable making that judgment. Each of us has own our excesses, vices, struggles and shortcomings. I think there is credibility in the very traditional strains of Orthodoxy, though I may not agree with them on every point. On some points I do however, some of which have nothing to do with relations to other churches. I will say I would always look to a Zosima over a Ferapont for direction.
Credibility is strained or lost in my opinion when charity, self introspection or the ability to recognize alternate viewpoints goes out the window. That is I think one of the issues with polemics, and why (to me) they are often so unconvincing. Hypocrisy I think is a trap of this approach as well.
NeoChal & AMM,
Forgive my inelegant use of language. I am not judging the hearts of anti-ecumenical voices (East or West), but the fruits of their anti-ecumenicism. As you said, AMM, “I think there is credibility in the very traditional strains of Orthodoxy, though I may not agree with them on every point.”
But again, and as you said AMM, there rhetoric is often noticeable absent in “charity, self introspection or the ability to recognize alternate viewpoints.”
In Christ,
+FrG
Iam sorry that someone took offense of the use of the term Roman Church. No more offense was meant than if I had used Greek Church, Russian Church, Serbian Church. American Church. Judging by what is goin on here, we all need to get a grip on it as the saying goes.
Reading this diatribe – Why would anyone want to join any of your communions? I find nothing here Christ Centered except for the sharing of the Bread of Life. Lord, Jesus, have mercy on us!
What about Jesus’ request to the Father that we all be one as He and the Father are one? I do not mean to be offensive to anyone, but I pray for things like this to happen. This may be the seed that needs to be planted for both sides (Rome and Constantinople) to wake up and reconcile and quit worrying about eccliastical egos. sorry, but that is the way I see it. They both are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Time to act it.