Good friend of the blog and frequent commenter, Michaël de Verteuil, attended the recent “Orthodox Constructions of the West” conference at Fordham University (June 28-30), and sent the following first installment of a report about the conference to Eirenikon readers:
Update – The official press release from Fordham can be read here. Michael Liccione, of Sacramentum Vitae, discusses the conference here. An interesting combox discussion can be read over at John’s Ad Orientem.
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The Conference was amazingly rich both in content and participants. I felt it was money well spent for several reasons that should come out in our discussion. As it covered two and a half days and involved the presentation and discussion of about a dozen papers, a single report would not do it justice. On the other hand, offering a dozen reports at one go would just lead to a confused and scattered discussion, so I have proposed to our kind host that we offer offer no more than one or two a day, perhaps holding off on the next one until comments trickle to a stop. I should also note that the proceedings will eventually be published, and this approved and more comprehensive version should ultimately be given primacy over the notes I offer here.
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One major disappointment for me was the limited time I was able to spend with
Dr. Tighe,
Dr. Peter Gilbert (of
“Bekkos” fame) and Fr. Paul
[frequent commenter on Eirenikon – Ed.] (who managed to make his way from Greece for the Conference). It was wonderful to see them and chat with them in the flesh, however, no matter how briefly. Unfortunately,
Dr. Michael Liccione who had planned to attend doesn’t seem to have been able to make it.
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From what I could tell, about half the participants appeared to be Orthodox, perhaps a quarter to a third were Catholic with teh remainder a smattering of secular historians and Protestants. I am told that attendance was just under 180 at its highest, and that seems about right though I didn’t take a count myself.
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Anti-ecumenists were notably absent, perhaps understandably, though as you will see in subsequent reports, their flag bearers were present in spirit and their works discussed, in some cases not altogether unsympathetically.
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I will begin with this report of Fr. Taft’s opening address. It proved hard to bear for some of the Orthodox attendees but, as one of them put at lunch to the agreement of his fellow Orthodox at the table, Fr. Taft has pretty well earned to right to say whatever he wants. ;-)
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“Perceptions and Realities in Orthodox-Catholic Relations Today: Reflections on the Past, Prospects for the Future”
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In the opening keynote address, Fr. Taft, introduced as the world’s foremost expert on the history of the Byzantine liturgy with over 800 publications to his credit, noted that the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue remained on track (which he found encouraging), but offered two grounds for disillusion: the field remained the preserve of theologians and hierarchs and needed to be pursued more at the grassroots level, and the process continued to be plagued by failure to accept and confront respective responsibility for “a dolorous past.”
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In the spirit of openness, Fr. Taft began by acknowledging the responsibility of his own (Jesuit) order, describing its relentless 16th and 17th century proselytism against Eastern Christians in the Ottoman Empire, India, Ethiopia and the Polish Commonwealth as a form of ecclesial imperialism. Uniatism pursued in this way had resulted in merely partial unions while dividing Eastern Churches as lay people loyally followed their bishops without clearly appreciating the underlying issues in dispute. As a result, the consequences of uniatism posed the greatest obstacles to wider reunion.
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Ironically, only full reunion would resolve the resulting problems, but there was still a role for interim solutions. As examples, Fr. Taft pointed to the need for steps like abandoning “selective histories” and adopting “shared history” that would be based on common hermeneutic principles. Each side should also be clearer on what was required of the other as a basis for reunion. (By this I understood him to mean more than the restatement of simplistic, insulting and empty exhortations to “repent” and “return to the true faith,” but he didn’t specify.)
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He noted progress on the Roman side with recognition that the 9th century had seen a problematic evolution of the exercise of its primacy in the East, and the fact that Catholic scholarship no longer referred to the “Eastern schism” preferring instead to a more neutral and less judgmental “East-West schism.” He contrasted this Roman movement, however, with an Orthodox failure to acknowledge that Papal primacy in the West had played a critical role in keeping the Western Church united as a bulwark against rising secularism, and that the absence of the exercise of this Petrine function in the East left chaos, usurpation and local schism there as the only responses to intra-Orthodox ecclesiological quarrels.
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Fr. Taft also stressed that the Jesuits/Catholic side was not solely responsible for uniatism. Whatever its flaws, it had been proposed initially by Eastern bishops bashed by the Reformation on one side, by the Poles and Jesuits on another clamoring for absorption of their Orthodox flocks into the Latin rite, and finally by Russian imperialism treating this same flock as ripe for military conquest and incorporation. Uniatism had in fact been offered as a compromise by five of the seven Orthodox bishops under Polish rule and only secured after lengthy negotiations with the aim of respecting Eastern faith, worship and autonomy.
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Orthodoxy needed to undertake its own examination of conscience and adopt a less polemic view of history. Fr. Taft noted, for example, that the Catholic apology for past sins against the unity of the Church was met largely with indifference, with Russian and Greek bishops even averring that Orthodoxy, for its part, had nothing to apologize for never having resorted to uniatism or used the secular arm to impose its will or oppress the conscience of others (this elicited some nervous chuckling from a largely scholarly audience). Orthodox forms of “uniatism” had been manifest with respect to an Assyrian “Orthodox” Church under Russian auspices in the interwar period and could be found even today in the existence of “Western rite Orthodoxy”. Historically, the East had often resorted to the civil power in imposing its jurisdiction and oppressing minorities, and Fr. Taft cited as examples instances in Southern Italy and Sicily as well as amongst Armenians, Syriacs and Copts at the hands of Byzantines, and against the Georgian Church, Old Believers and Polish Catholics by Orthodox Russians.
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It was important to avoid anachronistic impositions of current standards and rules on ages past, as all powers, not just Western ones, had sought to impose religious conformity by force. It was, Fr. Taft brutally argued, time for Orthodox polemicists to “grow up.” Behaviour, not doctrine remained the main obstacle to reunion in his view. Ecumenical scholarship was in need of the application of Christian principles to unite faithful rather than stress and highlight often superficial differences; to be realistic and truthful while applying the same standards with consistency to both sides. Fairness required recognition that differences that were already in play in the first millennium should be accepted as valid, as the magisterium would otherwise be contradicting itself in having once accepted what to some was now unacceptable. Both the Western and Eastern fathers had to be incorporated in any review of our respective theologies. Misrepresentation had to be avoided, and he offered two examples. Orthodox critics still tended to treat scholastic theology as “the” rather than “a” Western theological framework. Similarly, Neo-Palamite efforts to treat existing differences as having been dogmatized should be resisted. It was false, for example, to claim that Palamism had been condemned by the Catholic side and ignore the fact St Gregory figured on the calendar of Eastern Catholic Churches and was thus considered a Saint by Catholics as well as by Orthodox.
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Concluding, Fr. Taft argued that the discourse was sorely in need of increased “common human decency.” He pointed to the dialogue with Anglicanism as a model to follow (though it was unclear to me whether he meant the Anglican dialogue with Catholicism, the one with Orthodoxy, or both), at least in terms of courtesy and temper.
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During the subsequent question period, Fr. Taft acknowledged that the autocratic model of Roman primacy had never been accepted in the East. He also noted, however, that there was no evidence the West had ever for its part recognized the Pentarchy and thus autocephally as the Church’s organizing principle. The way forward thus probably lay in a synthesis rather than in the imposition of one or the other model. Fr. Taft also stressed the primacy of saving souls over the strict application of abstract ecclesiological principles that were, in any case, not universally respected by either side. Overlapping episcopal jurisdictions, for example, could be accepted as legitimate pastoral responses to local cultural diversity so long as the communities concerned felt a genuine need for them.
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The Conference was amazingly rich both in content and participants. I felt it was money well spent for several reasons that should come out in our discussion. As it covered two and a half days and involved the presentation and discussion of about a dozen papers, a single report would not do it justice. On the other hand, offering a dozen reports at one go would just lead to a confused and scattered discussion, so I have proposed to our kind host that we offer offer no more than one or two a day, perhaps holding off on the next one until comments trickle to a stop. I should also note that the proceedings will eventually be published, and this approved and more comprehensive version should ultimately be given primacy over the notes I offer here.
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Hmm, I see the report could still use some more editing. I will try to do better for Dr. Kolbaba’s presentation.
Thank you for this, Michael.
Your reports are much appreciated! Can’t wait to hear from Kolbaba’s presentation; it was the lecture that I thought — by its title — would be one of the most interesting.
Thanks again,
-Veritas
To argue that “Papal primacy in the West had played a critical role in keeping the Western Church united as a bulwark against rising secularism” seems to be pushing it a bit to me. My own experience of the Catholic Church in the Netherlands is that it is in a state of undeclared schism.
But I don’t mean to be polemical. Thank you for posting this – I look forward to the rest!
I think the Dutch situation is a measure of the seriousness of the problem rather than evidence of Rome’s failure. For the next decades Rome will pick orthodox bishops and so gradually bring the Dutch Church back to its roots. Liberals will progressively unchurch and become secular leaving a sustainable Orthodox core. What, on the other hand do you think will happen to the Old Catholics, Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans without this Petrine anchor? There are already more confirmed Catholics than Anglicans in the UK, and more practicing Catholics than Lutherans in Norway.
I can’t speak for the small conservative Reformed groups that are left in the Netherlands, but mainstream Calvinism in the Netherlands is clearly in deep trouble as well.
Michaël, I acknowledge that the Dutch situation is rather extreme – and indeed that there are related problems in other places. But I am also inclined to think that a significant part of the problem is the reduction of people’s consciousness of the Church to that of an institution – to which some (many) react. And that is not unrelated to the development of the papacy in the second millenium. Somehow the weakening of a truly ecclesial vision has gone hand in hand with a reliance on external authority so that when that external authority crumbles one is left adrift.
Thank you for your report(s)!
I am taking it upon myself to transfer the following comment from the thread here:
http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2010/07/fr-robert-taft-sj-call-for-restoration.html
Carlos Antonio Palad said…
“Why, then, does he say something that is patently false?”
He is simply repeating the ecumenist “party line” that still prevails among some quarters in Rome. This speech was delivered on June 28, 2010. On that same day Patriarch Kirill of Moscow gave a sermon that, among other things, denounced the “false union” of Florence:
http://rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=42717
As early as the 1970’s, people such as Cardinals Willebrands and Philippe were already proclaiming that there were no real doctrinal differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. The inclusion of St. Gregory Palamas in the Roman Martyrology in 1974 (which was NOT equivalent to formal canonization by a Pope) was an expression of the same mindset, even though Catholic theologians pre-1965 were practically unanimous in declaring Palamas a heretic. The most troubling thing, of course, is not that people were willing to be irenic and to be as generous as possible in allowing for legitimate differences. I would be the first to grant that many apparently insourmountable obstacles are not really such. Rather, it is that (then as now) many ecumenists liked to assume this alleged unity of faith between Catholicism and Orthodoxy without going beyond the rhetoric and PROVING it. (Yes, I am aware of various joint statements and studies regarding the Filioque, but all these that have really managed to do is to make some Orthodox suspect that some Catholics are willing to bend or distort their own theological heritage in order to make way for union.)
Some ecumenists like to cite Joseph Ratzinger as having believed the same thing, but this is apparently untrue, as the following shows:
http://credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/mistheol.htm
“In his classic work “The Church of God” which appeared in French in 1970 (in English in 1982), Fr. Louis Bouyer merely repeated the same “Reflections” he submitted to the 1974 Pro Oriente Conference held in Vienna. With regard to the suggestion that the Catholic Church accept only the dogmatic decisions of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils as fixed doctrine, one of the theological experts at the Conference, Prof. Joseph Ratzinger, declared Fr. Bouyer’s proposal to be “une utopie realiste”. That the definitions of later Catholic Councils be not regarded as obligatory would be, Ratzinger noted, “to destroy the Catholic Church”. Fr. Bouyer’s proposals were also firmly rejected by historian and theologian Fr. Wilhelm De Vries who noted that Fr. Bouyer’s proposition that Catholics and Orthodox constituted but one Church was acceptable neither to Catholics or Orthodox. ”
I see the speech of Fr. Taft, the never-ending flurry of misleading reports from some Catholic news agencies, and other similar occurences as signs of desperation from Catholic ecumenists. Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are developing towards a more traditional line, especially the Russian Orthodox Church, and even Catholicism (for all the rhetoric still coming from some quarters in the Vatican) is developing ecumenism fatigue. Many of the “old guard” (both Catholic and Orthodox) from the ’60’s and 70’s see their work crumbling right before their eyes.
7/02/2010 5:58 PM
I think Mr. Papas’ statement is precisely the type which Fr. Taft was pointing to as being unhelpful.
I’m sort of stuck in the middle. I completely agree that ’60s-’70s-vintage Catholic ecumenism (now in its death throes) went completely overboard. That “give-away-the-farm” mentality has got to go; it certainly is NOT reciprocated. And then-Professor Ratzinger was exactly right: To jettison all post-Schism ecumenical councils is to destroy the Church. I would bet my next paycheck that now-Pope Benedict would heartily agree.
OTOH…I do think that the actual theological disagreements are few…and surmountable! Misunderstanding, animus, and bigotry play a much larger role in our continuing separation than legitimate theological disagreement.
But getting the Orthodox to acknowledge this? Good luck!
Maybe both sides have to “jettison” post-schism ecclesial
councils.
“Unless a seed dies…..”
You can’t jettison an ecumenical council. That would be like jettisoning the Holy Spirit.
You can re-clothe conciliar decrees in language more intelligible to the East…but, even there, you’ve got to be pretty darned careful, not reckless or premuptuous. You’ve gotta be fully obedient and responsive to the legitimate Magisterium (as opposed to some gaggle of fashionable theologians ;-)).
“Unless a seed dies…” does not apply to doctrinal truths elucidated for the benefit of the faithful. I would respectfully suggest that this is a misuse of Scripture — moreover, of a Scriptural passage wrenched violently out of context.
I would also respectfully suggest that the proposal to “jettison post-Schism [ecumenical] councils” begs the question: What would the Orthodox be expected to do…I mean, seeing as they haven’t *had* any post-Schism ecumenical councils? Once again, the entire onus is on the Catholic side. Man, does that get old.
sorry for typo city — that would be “presumptuous,” of course.
I stated ecclesial councils, not ecumenical councils.
Ecumenical should mean ecumenical, world-wide, and that implies a council involving Catholics, Orthodox, the Churches of India, Assyria etc;etc;.
At any rate, I’m in favor of Raimundo Panikkar’s call for a second Jesrusalem Council.i
One question is whether a council can be ecumenical if the totality of the catholic church doesn’t participate due to schism? An ecumenical council, at least in theory, requires all the bishops of the whole Catholic Church. I’m not sure I have the answer to this from an Orthodox perspective because it is a complex question, but I think it is a valid one.
I would prefer local application and acceptance of those post schism western church councils considered ecumenical by the west be universal in application in the west alone. The acceptance of theses councils as ecumenical for the east in my opinion would be a huge stumbling block to the hopeful re-communion of east and west. However, the acceptance of them as universal in application in the west alone presents no real problem because the Orthodox could see them as universal for the west and applied only locally in the west.
Dianeski,
You said: “To jettison all post-Schism ecumenical councils is to destroy the Church.”
You are perfectly entitled to believe that. It may even be a valid presentation of what Catholics believe, although there are some who would dispute that. But it is nevertheless a statement that is clearly at odds with Orthodox ecclesiology.
Given that, I don’t understand how you can proceed to say that “the actual theological disagreements are few…and surmountable” or to express frustration that Orthodox have a problem acknowledging this.
If the onus is on the Catholic side, as I believe it is, then that is because it is the Catholic side that has departed from a tradition that was once common. They have introduced innovations, claimed ecumenicity for their councils, proclaimed new dogmas. Whatever the faults of the Orthodox, they have not done this.
But it is nevertheless a statement that is clearly at odds with Orthodox ecclesiology.
So? ;-)
With all due respect, Macrina…. Why do you assume that it is incumbent on Catholic ecclesiology to drastically transform itself to fit contemporary Orthodox ecclesiology? If I were to suggest the reverse — i.e., that the Orthodox must adjust their ecclesiology to fit ours — you would be offended. And rightly so.
When I asserted that we Catholics cannot jettison the post-Schism ecumenical councils (and, believe me, it ain’t gonna happen), I was simply echoing the words of then-Father Ratzinger, now-Pope Benedict. And he, in turn, was articulating not the opinions of this or that theological school but, rather, the judgment of the Magisterium.
IMHO, this is what our Orthodox brethren sometimes do not entirely grasp. In Orthodoxy, there is no final court of appeal, so ecclesiological arguments can be endless, and entirely different answers may emerge depending on whom one asks. One Eastern Catholic cyber-acquaintance has aptly described this endless diversity of opinion as “rabbinical.” Which is not in itself a Bad Thing. Debate is healthy, and we Catholics certainly have plenty of our own.
BUT…here’s the rub: We do have a final court of appeal, a final authority, a final arbiter, a final living interpretive mechanism–the Magisterium, the Church’s divinely instituted Teaching Authority. And, as Newman famously noted, once that authority has definitively spoken, that’s it. Case closed. The holiest saint and the most brilliant theologian must accede, as to the judgment of Christ Himself.
Does this mean we cannot refine our understanding of past dogmatic papal and conciliar decrees? Of course not. “Refinement of understanding” is the very essence of Development of Doctrine.
Does it mean we cannot re-clothe past Magisterial decrees in language more accessible to a particular contemporary audience? Again, of course not.
But we cannot, in the process, turn past Magisterial pronouncements on their ear. We cannot “redefine” them out of existence. We cannot reinterpret them until they mean something substantially different from what they have always meant.
That is why then-Father Professor Ratzinger could assert, with such confidence, that it would be impossible to jettison the post-Schism ecumenical councils. He was not voicing his opinion as one theologian among many. He was echoing the Magisterium. Big difference.
For us, debate is vigorous but not endless. Warring Catholic theologians may sometimes give you the impression that absolutely everything is on the table, but believe me, it’s not. If you think it is, then you are fundamentally misunderstanding Catholicism.
This or that brilliant theologian may disagree with formally defined Catholic dogma…but, in that case, this or that brilliant theologian would be wrong. There are limits on the rabbinical debate process. The buck stops somewhere. Roma locuta est, and all that. :-)
God bless,
Diane
Diane,
Fine. I would more or less have expected you (and some other Catholics) to say that. But my point was that, and I quote: ‘Given that, I don’t understand how you can proceed to say that “the actual theological disagreements are few…and surmountable” or to express frustration that Orthodox have a problem acknowledging this.’
It seems to me that there are fundamentally differing approaches to ecclesiology at work here. It’s not just a case of particular points that can be ironed out but of a fundamentally different way of approaching things, although there are of course various shades of more or less nuanced approaches on both sides of the schism.
http://mliccione.blogspot.com/2010/07/orthodox-constructions-of-west.html
Well, I have seen this sort of silly discussion before. Let me ask a couple of questions.
First, if the request is that the Catholic Church should drop “all post-schism councils,” meaning I suppose those after what is in Catholic and Orthodox reckonings the Seventh Council (787), do not the “Oriental Orthodox” have just as good a case for seeking that what they see as “all post-schism councils,” that is, all those councils after the Third Council, the Council of Ephesus of 431, be “dropped?” And, then, let’s not neglect “the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church of the East, and of the Assyrians,” which recognizes only two ecumenical councils, Nicaea I (325) and Constantinople I (381) — so we must jettison Ephesus as well.
Perhaps we should breathe a prayer of thanksgiving that a remnant of the Arians did not survive in some out-of-the-way corner of the world, say among the Crimean Goths (who were still extant in the 1550s), or we would have to jettison those councils as well.
What foolishness — but what is really being “jettisoned” or “dropped” under the guise of this absurd proposal, although not acknowledged, is the common belief that the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” of the creed is a visible and indivisible body, to which more than one “communion” may lay claim. It seems a bad deal to drop this venerable and even apostolic belief for a version of the “divisible but visible” or “indivisible but invisible” ecclesiologies that owe their origin to the Protestant Refromation and subsequent permutations.
I agree with you William. I also marvel at the minutiae that passes for justifiable cause for formal ecclesiastical schism.
However small and discreetly local in the grand march of traditions, no spiritual, liturgical, theological, ecclesiastical, dogmatic or hagiographic sturn is left untoned in the valiant effort to make as many mountains as possible out of confessional mole-hills!
That being said, do you, or anyone else here have any ideas about how we can sift through the pile of confessional differences and develop a way of organizing them into some kind of order where they can be examined rather than summarily tossed in the Dust Bin of the Utterly Impossible Differences?
Mary
Dr. Tighe,
As a Roman Catholic I accept the teachings of the 21 councils called ecumenical by the Catholic Church, but I think your comparison of post-Schism Western councils with the 3rd and 4th councils to be faulty.
In the case of both Ephesus and Chalcedon, those who eventually rejected these councils were invited (and participated) and then afterward came to reject the conclusions of those councils (like the Arians with the first council). But in the case of all the councils after the 7th (with the exception of Constantinople IV, Lyons II and Florence) the Eastern bishops were not invited and the issues involved didn’t even concern them. In other words, the East did not reject those councils as much as they simply ignored them. So I think it is at least open to debate as to their status as truly “ecumenical”. This does not mean, of course, they they taught error or even that they they should be “jettisoned,” but that is a different question than ecumencity.
Eric,
The Eastern bishops were not only invited to Lyons and Florence, they actually participated with many subsequently repudiating the proceedings. They were also invited to Vatican I and II (but chose to participate as observers only). That leaves Lateran IV and Trent as the only significant later councils to which the Orthodox were not invited. If they had come spontaneously, they would no doubt have been seated.
We should also remember that Constantinople I was held, and even approved changes to the Creed, without a single Western bishop present.
Representativeness is not the issue, and in itself is neither an obstacle nor an assurance of truth.
It is best to assess councils on the basis of the canons they approve rather than on who was or was not present.
“We should also remember that Constantinople I was held, and even approved changes to the Creed, without a single Western bishop present.”
And without its having been, in intention as well as in fact, convoked as an “ecumenical council,” but only a local council for bishops of the Constantinople-Antioch region. Rome didn’t recognize it as an “ecumenical council” until 534 AD, and Alexandria (both Orthodox and Coptic) until even later in that century.
“If the onus is on the Catholic side, as I believe it is, then that is because it is the Catholic side that has departed from a tradition that was once common. They have introduced innovations…”
Hello, Macrina,
While I would also disagree that “To jettison all post-Schism ecumenical councils is to destroy the Church,” I would humbly submit for examination those councils in which the East was overly-reactionary in their seeing the (*real* distinction) Palamite theology through till the end. As a Catholic, I do tend to think that Eastern Orthodox theologians have misread many of the fathers in their following of (interpretation of) Gregory Palamas.
Now, that may not seem too surprising, but it is a reality that most Catholics see this as indeed an innovational concept coming from the East.
However, I don’t want to sound so negative — I truly pray for the reunion of our two great communions — but I just thought I should provide how a Catholic can agree with your main point in the above quoted words, just coming from the other side.
-Veritas
Veritas,
Yes, after posting that comment I realised that someone could raise the issue of Palamism, although that is something that could clearly be contested. Nevertheless, I think that my point remains regarding councils and dogma. And, one could also add, respecting ancient sees – after all, the Orthodox have not set up a rival patriarchate of Rome (although I dare say that some of the more extreme Orthodox voices would argue that it could be done).
Dr. Tighe, …. well said.
Marcina Walker, if the Palamite Energy/Essense dogmatism is not an innovation, then i don’t know what is.
Mary,
You asked Dr. Tighe, but I would hazard a short response if I may. I believe the solution lies in what I call a “hermeneutic of unity.”
As an intellectual exercise, you begin by assuming that the other side’s teachings and practices are sound, i.e. that they involve attempts (however imperfect) to live and express the same true faith you share, but in ways that are not readily familiar to you.
From there you go through a process of “interpretation” of the other’s teachings and practices so as to develop a set of dynamic equivalents with those found in your own tradition.
Finally you submit your “interpretations” to competent interlocutors on the other side to determine whether these readings do violence to their understanding of their own tradition.
This kind of hermeneutic has proven critical to reunion with the Eastern Catholic Churches, given that differing formulations and practices between East and West have had to be mutually tolerated so as to allow each was to remain faithful to its past.
A few examples:
Latin Catholics can (in theory) accept Orthodox second marriages, if a stress is placed on their penitential as opposed to sacramental character.
The Orthodox practice of priestly chrysmation can be seen as acceptable by Latin Catholics by interpreting the preceding episcopal blessing of the chrysm as integral to the operative principle of the rite.
Conversely, Eastern Catholics can accept Latin recitation of the filioque with the understanding that the original Latin and Greek versions of the Creed were not identical in meaning, and that the Latin “procedere” has a wider meaning than “to originate.”
This hermeneutic has also proven central to the apparent resolution of the Christological differences with Assyrians and Oriental Orthodox, and to the agreed statement with Lutherans on grace and salvation.
If more Orthodox scholars and theologians were disposed to pick over stereotypically Catholic formularies with a view to positively reading into them meanings consistent with what is allowable within Orthodoxy, most of the difficulties would fall away. Instead, there is a general tendency, as you suggest, to dig for differences that can be raised a-historically to the level of formal obstacles to communion.
I am looking for responses from anyone really.
The tendency for many ecumenically minded Catholics is to ignore the more vocal anti-ecumenical Orthodox on the Internet. Some of that tendency is prompted by Orthodox clergy and hierarchs who refer to some of what for such claims to the true Orthodox perspective as the so-called lunatic fringe. In my mind that does not help much.
I think you may have something here but there has to be a way of determining what constitutes formal heresy worthy of schism and that which does not and that “way” of speaking and examining theological and dogmatic issues has to be agreed upon.
I go wild when I read perfectly good Orthodox theology, by spiritually rich Orthodox theologians, where a good third of the text is occupied in telling me what the “west” thinks, and none of it is Catholic in any event!!…Half the nonsense that passed for scholasticism over the past few centuries has been studiously ignored by those who promulgate Catholic doctrine and catechesis, yet text upon weary text from Orthodoxy tells me about this and that of so-called scholastic teaching that is no more a part of Catholic teaching than the Man in the Moon.
And God forbid that any Catholic write ever make a mistake!!
Thankfully, classical Thomistic teaching has seen a resurgence over the past century and into the beginning of this one but who the dickens in Orthodoxy reads St. Thomas. No. They read Protestant and scholastic by-products that have precious little to do with the original meanings and texts written by a mystic. Who would know?
I am full, all the way up to my oxygen exchange valve, with Orthodox interlocutors tell me what Catholics teach, think, do or don’t do, on and on and on…and IF I dare to try to correct well then it is clear to them Catholic teaching has obviously changed.
That sort of thing is foul play and needs a good does of historical reality set upon it in order to be able to sort out any of it.
But you are right in one thing: Without good will and willingness to hear on BOTH sides…we are simply going to perpetuate the same old errors over and over and over again.
The LAST thing most of us who are Catholic and love Orthodoxy want is for Orthodoxy to be be subjugated to anyone or anything. But that apparently is not good enough…or is too good. I haven’t decided which.
Mary
Try again: The tendency for many ecumenically minded Catholics is to ignore the more vocal anti-ecumenical Orthodox on the Internet.
Some of that tendency is prompted by Orthodox clergy and hierarchs who refer to those who express claims to having the true Orthodox perspective, which is inherently anti-ecumenical, as the so-called lunatic fringe. In my mind that does not help much.
“…there has to be a way of determining what constitutes formal heresy worthy of schism and that which does not and that “way” of speaking and examining theological and dogmatic issues has to be agreed upon.”
There certainly is an issue of “authority” that is problematic for Orthodox. Classically, heresy is such a serious accusation when leveled at a faith community that one would expect suspended judgment until such time as a competent synod has ruled on the matter. Significantly, no Orthodox synod that I am aware of has ever anathemized a correctly articulated Catholic teaching on theological grounds.
As a result, Orthodox insistent on hanging the “h” word on us prefer to treat polemic charges by favoured anti-Catholic ascetics as fair substitute for formal synodically-based convictions. It should perhaps go without saying that the ecclesiology involved is so unpatristic as to leave little if any shared basis for rational discourse.
“I go wild when I read perfectly good Orthodox theology, by spiritually rich Orthodox theologians, where a good third of the text is occupied in telling me what the “west” thinks, and none of it is Catholic in any event!!”
We get the same treatment from Protestant and even secular critics. Gems I have heard in the past include: the Church teaches that women have no souls; that killing babies immediately after baptism so they can be saved before having an opportunity to sin is consistent with Catholic teaching; that the Church teaches that God, the saints and the angels live in outer space, that the Church orchestrated the Shoa as a response to the Crucifixion, etc…. Orthodox anti-Catholics are a bit more subtle and have different hobby-horses, but…
“I am full, all the way up to my oxygen exchange valve, with Orthodox interlocutors tell me what Catholics teach, think, do or don’t do, on and on and on…and IF I dare to try to correct well then it is clear to them Catholic teaching has obviously changed.”
Ultimately some Orthodox can only be reached or corrected by fellow Orthodox whose shcolarship they respect. Sadly some will never be reachable by anyone. This is just something we will have to live with. If Orthodoxy is going to be held hostage to a fringe that refuses to engage Catholicism as authoritatively articulated by its magisterium, then the only road left open is uniatism.
On thing Orthodox conference participants insisted on is that this style of Orthodox apolegetics is strongly linked to right-wing nationalist movements (though I would tie it as well to converts among anti-Catholic Protestant), has little scholarly rigour, and is progressively losing influence in the various episcopal hierarchies. They may be right. Orthodox anti-ecumenists are increasingly shrill in their condemnations of “sell-out” bishops, and this may be a sign that they feel the tide is running against them.
There were presentations on Romanides and Yannaras and I hope to report on them eventually. But first I want to finish my report on Dr Kolbaba’s thoughts on the origin of the schism.
Eric Sammons wrote:
“In the case of both Ephesus and Chalcedon, those who eventually rejected these councils were invited (and participated) and then afterward came to reject the conclusions of those councils (like the Arians with the first council).”
With respect, this is simply not the case as regards Ephesus. No bishops from Persia were either invited to or present at that council. Consequently, the Persian Church ignored it for some time, and when they came to reject it, in 484, it was part and parcel of their rejection of what I may term “Henotikon orthodoxy,” the “orthodoxy” that involved burying Chalcedon in silence and tacitly allowing its rejection, while exalting Ephesus and Cyrilline orthodoxy. Curiously, the Persian Church seems to have accepted the Chalcedonian definition without ever having the ecumenicity of that council, and as late as the 540s envoys of the Persian Catholicos were trying to persuade Justinian to sponsor a healing of the breach between them and the imperial church based on a common acceptance of Chalcedon — an approach that the emperor spurned to pursue his will o’ the wisp of reconciliation with the “miaphysite” opponents of Chalcedon.
I was taught that there was never a Council held in the west where the eastern Churches were not invited. Was that not correct?
Mary
I don’t know about “never,” but Easterners were invited to several medieval councils, as well as to Trent, at the latter of which a Greek bishop, not Catholic, who was making a “fund-raising trip” through Western Europe, turned up around 1551 and after reciting the Creed in Greek — and nothing more — was seated as a bishop without further a-do. Not that he is recorded as having unttered a single work in the time that he was present at it.
Latin Catholics can (in theory) accept Orthodox second marriages, if a stress is placed on their penitential as opposed to sacramental character.
The Orthodox practice of priestly chrysmation can be seen as acceptable by Latin Catholics by interpreting the preceding episcopal blessing of the chrysm as integral to the operative principle of the rite.
I have absolutely no problem with the priestly chrismation thing, but I have HUGE problems with the second-marriage thing. I would hope and pray that the Church never capitulates to the zeitgeist to such an extent — and, indeed, I am confident it will not. We have enough problems with rampant abuses of the annulment process. All we need is further ambiguity re the sanctity of marriage — oy!!
Besides which, where would it end? Wouldn’t our Protestant brethren quite rightly demand that we extend the same courtesy to them — accepting as valid, albeit “penitential,” their second and third marriages? At the risk of sounding alarmist or whatever, I think we would end up subverting the whole idea of the indissolubility of marriage.
And where is the Scriptural justification for such a move, anyway? Where does Our Lord speak of the “penitential” validity of second and third marriages? What part of “What God has joined together let NO MAN put asunder” are we not getting here?
Can we not call a spade a spade and assert that our Orthodox brethren are wrong — tragically, unScripturally wrong — in their acceptance of second and third marriages? Does ecumenical outreach require the subversion of the Word of God?
Macrina invokes the tired old canard of supposed Catholic “innovations.” But, if anything’s an “innovation,” it is the acceptance of second and third marriages as valid albeit “penitential.” The New Testament says nothing of this. Our Lord’s commandment is quite otherwise: A valid sacramental marriage can NOT be dissolved; any subsequent union is (in His word) adultery. Yes, this is a hard truth, especially in this age. But the hard sayings of Jesus cannot be wished away, not even in the interests of ecumenism.
I must get ready for work, so I will stop here. I will only say, though, as a child of divorce, that our impulse to soften Our Lord’s teaching on marriage may be guided by a mistaken charity. So often we leave the children out of the equation; we think only of the happiness or unhappiness of the divorcing couple. Well, guess what? Divorce stinks for kids. From the kids’ POV, that “hard saying” is not so hard after all!
Sorry to get us derailed onto the divorce thing, although it is one of the ecumenical stumbling-blocks and therefore at least tangentially relevant….
Diane,
This is a complicated issue. In some ways Orthodox practice is stricter in that second marriages by widowers are also (in theory) considered penitential whereas the Latin practice is to treat death of one party as dissolving the marriage bond entirely.
Be that as it may, the Catholic “interpretation” of Orthodox second marriages does not constitute “approval,” it merely involves a recognition that Orthodoxy is not purporting to confer a sacrament in such cases. (Whether Orthodox canonists would necessarily agree with this interpretation is another matter.)
The practice seems to be disappearing amongst Byzantine Catholic and doesn’t figure in the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches, so you are free to consider its continuation amongst Orthodox to be an “abuse” among many that we might eventually be called upon to tolerate for the sake of unity. There is no suggestion that it should be imported into the Latin rite.
Michael…we will have to agree to disagree re this. Our Lord never said that His emphatic words re the indissolubility of marriage apply only to the Latin West. They are universally valid. And they do not admit of “penitential” second or third marriages. If you can find a Scriptural warrant for such “marriages,” I would be very interested to see it.
I disagree that this is complicated. Our Lord certainly did not present it as complicated. “What God has joined together let NO MAN put asunder.” How could He have made it any clearer?
Ask the kids devastated by divorce/remarriage what they think of “penitential” second and third marriages. Their answers may prove enlightening for all of us!
Diane,
I don’t intend getting into a discussion on divorce. But to accuse Orthodoxy of innovation on this is a bit much. Even Father Professor Ratzinger acknowledges (or acknowledged in 1972, he might have changed since) that Saint Basil’s views on the matter are closer to Orthodox practice than to Catholic practice. In an essay he wrote in 1972, quoted by John Allen Jr. (Pope Benedict XVI: A Biography of Joseph Ratzinger, pp. 76-77) one reads:
“The demand that a second marriage must prove itself over a longer period as the source of genuine moral values, and that it must be lived in the spirit of faith, corresponds factually to that type of indulgence that can be found in Basil’s teaching. There it is stated that after a longer penance, communion can be given to a digamus (someone living in a second marriage), without the suspension of the second marriage; this in confidence of God’s mercy who does not leave penance without an answer. Whenever in a second marriage moral obligations have arisen toward the children, toward the family and toward the woman, and no similar obligations from the first marriage exist; whenever also the giving up of a second marriage is not permissible on moral grounds, and continence does not appear as a real possibility (magnorum est, says Gregory II—it is beyond the strength of the parties); it seems that the granting of full communion, after a time of probation, is nothing less than just, and is fully in harmony with our ecclesiastical traditions. The concession of communion in such a case cannot depend on an act that would be either morally or factually impossible.
… Marriage is a sacrament; it consists of an unbreakable structure, created by a firm decision. But this should not exclude the grant of ecclesial communion to those person who acknowledge this teaching as a principle of life but find themselves in an emergency situation of a specific kind, in which they have a particular need to be in communion with the body of the Lord.” <a href"http://wanweihsien.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/the-eastern-churches-and-the-indissolubility-of-marriage-part-2-of-2/#comments/" Source.
Dear Macrina,
I believe I can fully support you in this, and formally I believe that the Catholic Church would accept Orthodox practice without change, for the very patristic reason that you indicate in your response here to Diane. There is also every indication of that in some of the agreed statements on marriage and the practice of some eastern Catholic Churches with regard to divorce.
Like you I would rather not get bogged down in a detailed discussion of divorce. I think the area of ecclesial differences would bear more fruit and be closer to the spirit of the conference…for discussion here.
M.
I’m the child of divorced parents. My mother remarried and she and my step-father obeyed the dictum of not receiving communion. They made sure my half-sisters and I were catechized in the Catholic faith.
Years later, a priest told them that since they’d been married so long there shouldn’t be any reason for them not to receive communion.
I recently met my biological father after 50+ years. He too remarried. He and his wife adopted a child who unfortunately died in adolescence. He and his wife attend Mass also.
I think that a bit of compassion can prevent quite a bit of disbelief.
Michael wrote: “One thing Orthodox conference participants insisted on is that this style of Orthodox apolegetics is strongly linked to right-wing nationalist movements (though I would tie it as well to converts among anti-Catholic Protestant), has little scholarly rigour, and is progressively losing influence in the various episcopal hierarchies. They may be right.”
Gosh…I sure hope so!
[emphasis added]
I had to go several times through all the comments until I could extract “from under the rubble” (no offense, it is a quotation of Solzhenitsyn famous collection of essays, completely forgotten in the “West”) the real intention of the “conference”. A condemnation of the “right-wing nationalistic Movements” that underlie a certain “Orthodox apolegetics (sic!).
I would not ask who were the “Orthodox conference participants” who insisted to disengage themselves from any possibility to be finger pointed as “nationalists” leaning towards some … Movement”, lest they might lose their tenures at some Catholic Universities , because one can figure it out from the list of participants. It is a matter for their own conscience.
Seraphim,
Instead of digging through the rubble (which largely reflects the interests of posters on this site) you should perhaps have read the conference programme itself first, and then distinguished between the actual presentations as I (and others on other sites) progressively report them, and the reported side chatter that may have occurred on the margins of the conference.
Ecumenism and differences between Catholics and Orthodox per se were not the topic. Instead the Conference focused squarely on how specific Orthodox theologians, philosophers and writers over the centuries understood and portrayed the West.
The topic is understandably of interested to professional ecumenists like Fr. Taft who delivered a keynote address rather than a presentation. The conference was essentially academic in nature. Dr. Kolbaba’s presentation should thus really be seen as the first (and only one I have reported on so far).
Other than implicitly in Fr. Taft’s remarks, there was no “condemnation” of right-wing nationalist movements or of anti-ecumenism either in the presentations or in the side discussions. Romanides and Yannaras were each the subject of later presentations (as it happens, by Orthodox presenters) that outlined their views and located them within the spectrum of contemporary Orthodox perspectives.
Once I write up those reports you can then make a judgment as to whether their views were misrepresented.
Mary E. Lanser you said, “Thankfully, classical Thomistic teaching has seen a resurgence over the past century and into the beginning of this one but who the dickens in Orthodoxy reads St. Thomas. No. They read Protestant and scholastic by-products that have precious little to do with the original meanings and texts written by a mystic. Who would know?”
While we most Orthodox seminarians don’t read Thomas Aquinas is true, your accusation that we don’t read texts written by a mystic is FALSE.
By “a mystic”, she meant St. Thomas rather than some stodgy interpreters of the great Doctor, *not* that Orthodox do not read mystics.
Mary E. Lanser you said, “Thankfully, classical Thomistic teaching has seen a resurgence over the past century and into the beginning of this one but who the dickens in Orthodoxy reads St. Thomas. No. They read Protestant and scholastic by-products that have precious little to do with the original meanings and texts written by a mystic. Who would know?”
While your accusation that most Orthodox seminarians don’t read Thomas Aquinas is true, your accusation that we don’t read texts written by a mystic or mystics is patently FALSE and LAUGHABLE.
What has me laughing is the fact that you’d think I am referring to any mystic BUT St. Thomas whom you admit the Orthodox do not read. They only read poor interpretations of his works. He is a mystic. I referred to that fact in my note. You took it and make some mocking thing out of it, once again demonstrating how attitude directly effects the benefit of the doubt.
Mary
Subdeacon Joseph, you misread the comment regarding Aquinas.
Aquinas was a “mystic”, believe or not.
Actually, quite a few scholastics were deeply contemplative, ( an aspect of their theology overlooked by many).
I never said Aquinas wasn’t a mystic because his last words before his death testify to this fact . I believe Ms. Lanser was saying that the Orthodox don’t read mystics like Aquinas; “No. They read Protestant and scholastic by-products that have precious little to do with the original meanings and texts written by a mystic.” I read into this that we don’t read mystics such as Thomas Aquinas, rather we read “Protestant scholastic by products.” If I misread her, which is certainly possible, I apologize, but I don’t think I did. Maybe she was speaking off the cuff here too.
Maybe if we were not at one another’s throats all the time there’d be room for offering the benefit of the doubt and asking rather than accusing…eh?
Mary
Ma. Lanser,
I’m not at your throat. I just find you making a broad and sweeping accusation that is not true. That is all. Aquinas is not part of our tradition as Palamas is not part of yours. You don’t know me. I’m not the Orthodox lunatic fringe.
Dear SubDeacon,
You misread me. I made no sweeping accusation about who reads or does not read mystical texts. I was speaking of Aquinas. To make a sweeping statement would be stupid…and I would hope I am not that unaware.
And whether or not you are a fringe lunatic is of no interest to me. That is an Orthodox judgment of other Orthodox. I tend not to make that kind of judgment at all. nor do I give it much credence, since I tend to think the so-called lunatic fringe is pretty much the norm with Orthodox converts on the Internet.
There are far more lay Catholics aware of the contributions of Palamas in St. Gregory’s own words than there are lay pr clerical Orthodox who are aware of the contributions of Aquinas in his own words. Therein lies precisely part of the problem that I know must be solved before we can even look clearly at any of the realities of healing the schism.
You’ve made my point…several times over.
Mary
Dear Mary,
Aquinas simply is not taught in our seminaries except in a comparative theology class usually, which I had. We did study Scotus and Aquinas, among other Latin theologians. However, this was brief and was in now way an in depth study.
My seminary does teach us to see western theology within its own self understanding and context. For example, I defend the filioque within a western understanding of trinitarian unity. It is not a heresy. The problem is that no Catholic, western or eastern, should alter locally what was defined ecumenically. Another example is the Beatific Vision. It works in Latin theology, but, not in Byzantine theology per se. I could go on in what I learned but I hope you get the point.
There are many Orthodox, more than you think, who want to understand Latin Catholic theology as Latin Catholics understand it. There are many of us who do want unity because we comprehend the sinful nature of division.
Thank you!!…I apologize if I spoke out of turn with you particularly when I said you have proved my point. Apparently I was wrong!…happily I was wrong!!
Just a tickler here: I wonder if in a dynamic living Church it is such a bad thing to add something to a credal statement that helps clarify something taken in local context as long as it does not substantially alter the original truth. Why would that be such a terrible act, actually? In fact it is suggested that the addition of the filioque is not a terrible local adjustment as long as it is not heretical nor does it obfuscate the intention of the original truth claim.
M.
I understand your point. The west was trying to defend the Incarnation and Trinity which is a must. Sadly some Orthodox theologians and saints have reacted rather polemically to the filioque and declared it a heresy. However, no Orthodox synod has ever issued a proclamation of it to be a heresy. Therefore the filioque is not “terrible” by any means. Yet to alter the very Creed of the Church locally stands outside of the Church’s ecumenical tradition and protocol, which is not “terrible,” as much as it is threatening to both the ecumenical tradition and protocol of the Church themselves. I see the altering of such an important statement as a dangerous precedent to set, however understandable it may have been to do so.
Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
Thanks for your comments on my tickler for the Filioque’s appearance in the Creed, thereby forming a tradition of eastern Creed and western Creed.
I am not sure how else to do this but I run a small listserv called Irenikon on yahoogroups. There are a number of us who have gotten pretty close over the years, albeit at a distance, and the list is presently dominated by the daily postings of an Orthodox monk. So if you think you might like to join us I think you’d find a pleasant time of it.
Mary
Evagrius — I’m sorry, but IMHO the compassion argument doesn’t fly. What about compassion for the kids? If you were unscathed by your parents’ divorce, that’s great. But study after study shows that divorce is hell for children. “Blended” families bear many scars. Statistics overwhelmingly bear this out. Had I but world and time, I would google some studies for you. They are abundant.
The Catholic Church allows for separation from bed and board for various reasons (e.g., if one of the marital partners is abusive). But, if the marriage was sacramentally valid to begin with, then the separated partners cannot remarry without thereby committing adultery. If you think this is too harsh or un-compassionate, please take it up with Jesus, OK? ;) He is the One Who uttered those strong, uncompromising words on the subject.
A few random observations:
** If divorce were less readily tolerated in our society (and in our churches), husbands and wives would undoubtedly take greater pains to work things out — or at least to stick it out “for the children’s sake.” The very idea of sticking it out for the children’s sake seems to have disappeared in our narcissistic, self-indulgent society. Yet it was once a common practice. I cannot believe we are better off for having dropped it!
** How can multiple divorces / remarriages be seen as anything but a scandal? Even non-Christians are scandalized by it. During the first year after my husband and I were married, a Hindu graduate student from Delhi lived with us. Renu was in the process of vetting various suitors chosen by her parents for her semi-arranged marriage. Once, when we asked her about the wisdom of arranged marriages, she replied: “Look at the divorce rate in America, and then look at the divorce rate in India.” She had a point. India’s divorce rate is negligible compared with our divorce rate. Does this mean we are so much more “compassionate” than the Indians? Somehow I doubt it. ;-)
** The Basilian canard has been answered many times over. One Church Father does not a Magisterium make! And, as many others have shown, the patristic consensus (like the Scriptures it was based on) overwhelmingly supported the indissolubility of valid sacramental marriages.
Why do we seek to turn Our Lord’s emphatic words on their ear? Why are we so hell-bent on justifying the great evil of divorce/remarriage? How topsy-turvy is that? Mamma mia! As Scripture says, “Woe to those who call good evil and evil good.”
Scripture also says, “God hates divorce.” How’s that for blunt and uncompromising? Again, if y’all can find a Scriptural passage wherein God expresses His approval for divorce/remarriage up to three times for up to 20 reasons…please point it out to me. I would be very interested in seeing it.
To tell the truth, this whole discussion strikes me as surreal. I cannot believe that the Catholics here are, in any sense, supporting the un-Scriptural, un-patristic notion that multiple marriages/divorces are OK. Even the Eastern patriarchs opposed such a notion until they finally acquiesced under pressure from the Emperors (gradually c. 1000-1300 AD). In most other Catholic online fora, I doubt that I would be the sole Catholic arguing for the Catholic dogma of the indissolubility of marriage! And I doubt that I would be made to feel like some sort of rigid, fringe Latin traddie for so arguing. ;-)
And Macrina…again, WADR, I find it somewhat rich that you are so quick to accuse us Catholics of “innovating” while you take such hasty umbrage at my suggestion that perhaps the Orthodox have innovated here and there. ;-) I guess turnabout isn’t fair play…or else, perhaps, we Catholics must once again deal with the tired old claim that the Orthodox can do no wrong.
Michael alluded to a certain lack of scholarly rigor among Orthodox polemicists. I think the divorce debate spotlights this lack of rigor. From what I’m told, it can be historically demonstrated that the Orthodox hierarchy acquiesced only very gradually–over many centuries–in imperial pressure for more lax divorce laws. It wasn’t a simple matter of “Basil locutus est.” In fact, from what I’ve heard, the first person to push hard for a relaxation of the Dominical decree against divorce/remarriage was Justinian — and he was resisted by the Eastern patriarch!
I’m sure Professor Tighe can provide much more (and much more accurate) information re this. The bottom line is that it can be credibly argued that the Orthodox tolerance for multiple divorces/marriages is an innovation…that it represents an historically demonstrable departure from Dominical Teaching and from the patristic consensus.
I agree with Diane on this one.
Gosh, Dr. Tighe. Thank you.
I am honored and humbled… :)
Diane
I now truly regret I even brought up the issue of second marriages. This is not because I don’t think this is an issue that merits airing. It will have to be confronted eventually. I am sorry, instead, because it risks derailing a discussion on some amazing conference presentations. Any time I would spend trying to further address the issue I so foolishly raised is simply going to delay my third report (not to mention a complex response I still owe Joseph on another thread).
Nevertheless, I think I can offer a few thoughts that will give everyone enough to chew on so that we can leave this source of vexation aside for a few weeks, and meanwhile get this thread back onto its intended topic.
Before I share these reflections with you, however, please note that I am not an ethicist. I am sure that Dr. Liccione could do a much better job than I can,for example, should he choose to enter this particular snake pit. Unless I get something seriously wrong in what I am about to write, however, I would ask that he and others resist any temptation you might have to engage the marriage issue substantively on this thread, at least until we have finished with the conference discussion.
We need to make a clear conceptual distinction between the sacramental context of Orthodox second marriages and their disciplinary or caritative context. Obviously these are going to be intimately related, but confusing them as one disentangled whole is going to get us nowhere.
Here is the Catholic understanding of the issue (at least insofar as I understand then Cardinal Ratzinger properly): Orthodox second marriages do not violate the Church’s teaching concerning the sanctity of sacramental Christian marriage because they are *not* sacramental and as such are not marriages in the full sense of the term as understood by the apostles and as preached about by the Lord.
In coming to this conclusion, Ratzinger relied on the writings of Eastern bishops. These writings pointedly and explicitly acknowledge that those living in second marriages were doing so in an objective state of sin for which penitence and a more or less lengthy exclusion from communion for both participants is required. The “second marriage” thus becomes no more than a conjugal union tolerated and regularized for the sake of preventing worse indifferent fornication and so as to lead both participants through repentance into greater holiness and full assumption of the responsibilities incumbent upon them.
So much for the sacramental dimension.
It would appear, however, that this penitential aspect of second marriages, and efforts to distinguish them clearly from what Ratzinger would describe as true sacramental marriages, is increasingly poorly reflected in more recent practice in some Orthodox Churches. Indeed we have even had Orthodox posters on this site claiming to be astonished that any canonical penalties at all apply to those taking part in second marriages.
Make no mistake: if Orthodoxy is moving away from its own tradition and sacramental theology in this matter so as to conform itself to declining secular ethical values out of some misplaced sense of compassion, we have a big problem.
On the other hand, while I find Diane’s indignation entirely justified in the context of such abuse, we should recognize that, if Orthodoxy clearly and unambiguously stresses the penitential aspect of second marriages, we are left with a problem of differing disciplines rather than differences in faith. If this is the case, I trust (and indeed am confident) that Diane is also equally indignant at the scandalous abuse involved in the heretofore easy access to Catholic annulments in North America.
Now I mentioned a “misplaced sense of compassion” for a reason, as compassion may or may not be appropriate. Diane has alluded to hard cases such as those involving children. But there are some, also involving children, where compassion can be legitimately argued in favour of Orthodox second marriages. I am thinking primarily of those involving children whose custodial parent has been abandoned by his or her spouse. Do these children not have a right to both a father and a mother (even if one must act as a step-parent)? Also, while it is less of a problem in the developed world today, we should consider the stigma of illegitimacy and sometimes the loss of inheritance rights associated with children from “irregular” unions.
Even where no children are involved, there are also cases in which the innocent party is deserted and condemned to a life of humiliation and loneliness. We are all called to martyrdom, but it isn’t anything we should wish or impose on anyone.
In my view, such cases *can* justify a compassionate approach to Orthodox second marriages that might be manifested, for example, in lessening the duration and extent of penance that would otherwise be imposed on the participants. It strikes me, however, that the appeal to compassion made by some Orthodox extends far beyond such hard cases (e.g. that anyone involved in a failed marriage should be given a second chance). I find this as disturbing as Diane does, particularly if what we hear about growing laxity in Orthodoxy marital discipline is true.
Certainly no one should have *a right* to a second marriage (even a penitential one). The proper exercise of compassion should involve a case-by-case appreciation of the specific contexts and circumstances involved. Also, Orthodox practice can often strike Catholics as extraordinarily *lacking* in compassion. For example, a man or woman thrice widowed (which one would think would involve more than enough suffering for anyone) cannot wed again in Orthodoxy, as if somehow cursed by God.
I am sure there is much more we can discuss here, but I hope to have demonstrated that each has enough on his or her side of the argument that we can agree to leave it be for now and return to it later in a more suitable and less tangential context.
Hrm, I would raise some questions, but I do agree that this should be the start of a new post (if not at Eirenikon then somewhere else), so I will postpone doing so.
Seems to me that Michael’s post on Orthodox second marriages should come under the heading:
~Catholic Constructions of the East~
Some other time.
Mary,
I agree entirely. The Orthodox should be the privileged interpreters of Orthodoxy, and I look forward to being corrected. It’s not the sort of issue on which I would like to entertain lasting misconceptions. Thank you for indulging my suggestion of a truce. ;-)
OK, this is my last comment in this thread on this subject. I agree that this sub-discussion is derailing the main discussion. So, just one more response and I’m out. :)
Diane is also equally indignant at the scandalous abuse involved in the heretofore easy access to Catholic annulments in North America.
Yes, Diane has emphatically expressed her indignation at this scandalous abuse. Somewhere in this sub-thread, in fact. :)
But, as I said in that context, abuses do not invalidate the truth of the indissolubility of sacramental marriage — any more than Christians’ countless violations of Christian morality invalidate Christianity.
In Orthodoxy, IMHO, it is the teaching that is problematic, not just the praxis. In Catholicism, IMHO, it is only the praxis that has been faulty–and that can be corrected. It is a horrible scandal, but a correctable one.
Notwithstanding what then-Cardinal Ratzinger may have said (and IIRC his words were fairly ambiguous), I very much doubt that now-Pope Benedict would countenance recognition of the legitimacy of “penitential” second and third marriages. As the official guardian of the orthodox Catholic Faith delivered to us by Jesus and the Apostles, he would scarcely take the risk of undermining or muddying that Faith. And, considering that Jesus never said Word One about “penitential” second and third marriages — and certainly never said they were somehow OK — well, let’s just say that (IMHO) Hell will freeze over before any pope dogmatically declares the Orthodox doxis/praxis re second/third marriages morally acceptable.
Right now the Vatican is actively cracking down on abuses in the annulment process — precisely because our current pope is so concerned about the breakdown of the family. I think this should give us a clearer idea of what Benedict thinks (qua pope) than any speculative statements he made while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger.
As for the right of the Orthodox to define Orthodoxy — hear, hear; I’m all for it. But that does not make the Orthodox approach to divorce/remarriage RIGHT. It doesn’t mean that multiple marriages are somehow right for the Orthodox, albeit wrong for us. Christian Truth is not relative; there is not one truth for the East, another for the Latin West. Jesus is the Truth, and He preaches the same Truth regardless of where His followers are located geographically.
Jesus most emphatically forbade divorce and remarriage; He described second marriages as “adultery,” not as some sort of lesser “penitential” marriage. His words were so uncompromising that even His disciples balked at them! Yet Jesus never backed down. He never said, “Don’t sweat it, y’all; this doesn’t apply to the East, just to the West.”
Regarding the divorce/remarriage question, I prefer to follow Jesus; I prefer to “privilege” His words, His commands, and His views over those of the Orthodox. So, sue me. ;)
And now I’ve said my piece, and I wish y’all peace…
Diane
P.S. OK, one more thing. Somehow I doubt that the children victimized by divorce/remarriage feel consoled by the thought that their parents’ multiple marriages are “penitential.” “ISTM “penitential” re-marriages wreak just as much emotional havoc and cause just as much damage for kids as regular old re-marriages. Just my two cents’ worth…. :D
That should be “had I but world ENOUGH and time….” Am writing too fast (at work) to get my pretentious literary allusions straight….
diane- obviously the issue is quite meaningful and important to you but ii, for one, don’t find it germane to the topic at hand.
But I do have one parting shot;
http://www.alternet.org/rights/134214/is_the_twice-divorced_newt_gingrich_converting_to_catholicism_for_a_2012_run/
It seems to me that there’s something not quite kosher about all this.
( Sorry about the political angle but the tirade was a little overdone and this overreaction on my part is the last I have to say about the subject).
It wasn’t an idea peculiar to Saint Basil: it was the tradition of the Eastern Church at his time [as can be seen from the canons themselves], and onward [as can be seen from their approval by the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council (in Trullo)].
er, that last “diane” is not moi. And, needless to say, I disagree! (Again–if you don’t like “let NO MAN put asunder,” please take it up with Jesus. He said it, not I. And I believe He trumps even St. Basil. ;)
evagrius–I agree that this is a bunny-trail, although it certainly is one of the stumbling-blocks to reunion.
And I would NEVER excuse abuses in tthe annulment process, so let’s not even go there! (Of course, abuses do not disprove the doctrine. If they did, well–there goes Christianity, which has certainly been honored more in the breach than in the keeping.)
I don’t think it’s a stumbling block at all. I think it’s an opportunity to re-examine the entire area of family,sexuality etc;.
Up until a century or so ago, most people died fairly “young”. The simple pressure of survival required many children.
Nowadays, in a large portion of the world, these conditions no longer apply.
Two Dianes … something’s rotten here. I will investigate.
Faux Diane is commenting, using Real Diane’s e-mail address, from an IP address from Romania Data Systems in Arad, Romania: 79.113.210.126.
Something tells me we’ve met this character before, when he was writing from another very similar looking IP address from Romania Data Systems in Arad, Romania: 79.113.222.165.
This writer was banned from commenting after numerous warnings to treat other commenters with a modicum of Christian charity.
Nice try.
Wow LVKA aka Lucian, thats really low.. At least find a suck puppet or something don’t use someone else’s email bro.
While Pseudo-Diane’s tactics are clearly reprehensible, it would be a pity if that totally overshadows the point that he/she makes, and documents: that Saint Basil, far from being a maverick or an innovator, was simply articulating the mind of a not insignificant part of the Church.
I’ve no desire to discuss divorce, but suggesting that St Basil is some sort of a-ecclesial loose canon is, well, it’s just beyond the pale …
Again I will support what you are saying, Macrina, in part. I think what is being done is much more surgically dismissive than simply portraying this part of the teachings of St. Basil as being innovative.
There’s very little patience for coming to grips with the fact that all the core doctrinal truths and moral truths as passed on through the Fathers always exist in a living and breathing state of tension. In this fallen state of ours, it can be no other way.
The Orthodox are as guilty of seeking rigidity of particular doctrinal/liturgical/moral realities as the Catholics are…just over different issues.
This, it seems to me, should have been at least a tangential focus of the Conference participants. I am not sure that I am seeing that coming out clearly quite yet. Perhaps it will emerge as a resultant comment.
M.
I’ve no desire to discuss divorce, but suggesting that St Basil is some sort of a-ecclesial loose canon is, well, it’s just beyond the pale …
No one is doing this. NO ONE.
All we are saying is that the consensus patrum is a much safer guide than the alleged (and yes, emphasis on “alleged”) position of just one Father.
Considering the Orthodox tendency to marginalize Augustine, i do find it rich that our Orthodox brethren are so eager to put all their eggs in one Basilian basket — and a rather flimsy basket at that, given the controversy over what Basil actually meant.
And WADR — why not discuss divorce? In essence, you are invoking Basil to justify a doxis/praxis that destroys families, profoundly damages children (the most vulnerable among us), and undermines the cohesion of society.
Good luck with that! ;-)
And oh yes…I guess Our Lord’s words don’t enter into the equation, do they? Perhaps the defenders of divorce/remarriage are relegating Jesus Christ to the position of “a-ecclesial loon.”
I’m sorry. Once again, I find this discussion surreal. And the willingness of Catholics to defend the Orthodox approach frankly stuns and saddens me.
[…] Constructions of the West” conference at Fordham University (June 28-30). Part one may be found here. . Update – Dr Peter Gilbert, of De unione ecclesiarum, has posted the first part of his […]
This whole discussing on re-marriage is interesting in light of the recent legal goings-on in Egypt and the Coptic Church’s reaffirmation of the sanctity of marriage
Hello Tap!
Agreed and also the old news that Cyprus will not accept civil divorce decrees. One must receive their divorce decree from the local ordinaries. I don’t know how that is organized precisely…I forget but I was struck by the refusal to accept the civil decree.
Frankly, from my point of view, I see very little to quarrel with a divorce granted in pastoral economy by a tribunal of bishops and a decree of nullity granted by a tribunal of predominantly lay members…
There’s potential for abuse in either approach to divorce, neither one of the hews to gospel strictness…
I see no reason both systems could not bear up together in communion.
Mary
Mary
Hey Mary, tried to contact you recently, apparently you didn’t get the email. Not sure if it went straight to junk but. I might send a second message now that i see you online again.
I think it’s an opportunity to re-examine the entire area of family,sexuality etc;.
Enter the theology of the body!
I think it’s an opportunity to re-examine the entire area of family,sexuality etc;.
The Episcopal Church Welcomes You! ;-)
Seriously, though…it depends on what you mean by “re-examining.” If it’s the Katherine Jefferts-Schori model (“Dang those benighted Katlicks and Mormons, breeding like flies”), then thanks but no thanks.
I guess I am just a tad wary of arguments suggesting that time-tested truths and defined dogmas are up for grabs, at the mercy of the zeitgeist.
LOL, Irenaeus–never knew I had a doppelganger. :)
Just as long as he/she doesn’t try to steal my credit-card information….
Dear Tap,
Why don’t you join us on Irenikon as well. I think you’d like it. It’s slow and low key unless monk Ambrose and I lock horns, but that won’t be happening any longer. I shaved my head…
M.
Ok will do, although I will probably create another yahoo acct to join. Thanks for the invite.
The conference looks as another exercise in futility. The same old admonitions to “behave” addressed to the infantile Orthodox who refuse to “grow up”. The same (not so) subtle spin to blame everything on the Orthodox who cannot overcome their fear of “the Other”. When would Fr. Taft learn to “behave”?
As Michael pointed out, you really should read the program and wait for summations of the different presentations before exercising yourself into futility.
Ahhhnonono….I agree with Seraphim. Best to start pounding the Doom Drums NOW!!…That way when the facts come out, they don’t disturb the excellence of the anti-union prophecy.
M.
In fact what’s the need to wait for summations when the aims were defined in the announcement of the conference? “There is evidence of anti-democracy and anti-human rights rethoric coming from traditional Orthodox countries…the self-identification vis-a-vis the West is affecting the cultural and political debates in the traditional Orthodox countries in Eastern Europe…the conference…hopes to influence the production of theological, cultural and political ideas within contemporary Orthodoxy”.
The “keyword” address expressed “brutally” the same line. Orthodox must be educated through “ecumenical scholarship and theology”, through deconstructionism (the post-modern fad).
Sure, why wait for the substance when you can recklessly misrepresent the whole you haven’t heard or read and castigate the participants based on your tendentious misreading of an essentially benign blurb?
What is it exactly in your spliced quote above that makes you so indignant? Is it the observation that not everyone in Eastern Europe subscribes to Western notions of liberal democracy? Is it the suggestion that various and conflicting understandings of how the East differs from the West might have cultural and political implications for Orthodox societies? Or is it that the conference hopes to have an impact beyond narrow academic circles?
If such thin gruel provokes you…
Well, a bit of everything. Especially that the conference hopes to have a “political” impact beyond narrow academic circles.
[…] July 12, 2010 by Irenaeus We continue with the third part of Michaël de Verteuil’s report on the recent “Orthodox Constructions of the West” conference at Fordham University (June 28-30) (Part 1 and Part 2) […]
[…] “Orthodox Constructions of the West” conference at Fordham University (June 28-30) (Part 1, Part 2, and Part […]
Hopefully, enough time has passed to where bringing this topic back up isn’t inappropriate. If it is, please accept my apologies and feel free to either ignore or delete this post.
I found the discussion of divorce interesting (my thanks to everyone involved) and went looking for something remotely official about how Rome feels about the Orthodox POV on divorce/remarriage, but wasn’t able to find anything.
I did, however, find a bit of ecumenical dialogue and was wondering if anyone here could confirm or deny the accuracy of the following and maybe expand on what they’re referring to here:
“Catholic leaders have expressed the greatest respect for Orthodox canon law, and ***the general councils held in the West carefully avoided declaring that the Orthodox practice of allowing divorced Orthodox Christians to remarry is an obstacle to full communion.*** Nevertheless, the Catholic pastor cannot allow a divorced person, whether Orthodox or Catholic, to marry without a declaration from a Catholic marriage tribunal that he or she is free to do so.”
Click to access 5-264.pdf
The document references a collection of dialogues published by SVS Press, but not much of the relevant portions is available on Google Books. If there’s anyone here who’s familiar with this book and can talk a bit about it, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks….
Happyboy,
I do have the book in question, “The Quest for Unity”, published by SVS Press. It’s been a while since I read it, but I don’t remember it having too much about the issue of divorce and remarriage. I can take a look again, if you like.
Anything you have that might shed some light would be great. I started thinking maybe one of the reunion councils would have addressed it, but I didn’t have any luck there, either (at least in terms of googling; it’s not like I did indepth research…). Thanks.