On the Present Apparent Conflict Between “Orthodoxy” and “Catholicism
From Dissertations on Subjects Relating to the “Orthodox” or “Eastern-Catholic” Communion (1853), by William Palmer, M.A., Fellow of St. Mary Magdalene College, Oxford, and Deacon.
As there is one God and Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, one Holy Ghost, and one Baptism, so also there is One Body of the Church, the essential attributes of which are all inseparably united together. The Church is Holy: the same Church is Catholic, or Universal: the same is Apostolic: the same is Orthodox, or rightly-believing: the same is One. If there can be two Gods, one Almighty and the other all-merciful, then there may be two Churches, one Catholic or Universal, and the other Orthodox.
Yet at a certain point of time, or between two certain points of time, we see that great body of the visible Catholic or Oecumenical Church, which from the division of the Oecumenical Roman Empire (tes oikoumenes) was distinguished superficially into two branches, Eastern and Western, Greek and Latin, without detriment to its essential unity, splitting into two separate and hostile communities, one of which insisting upon “Orthodoxy'” was nevertheless unable to enforce that Orthodoxy upon the consciences of men by the weight of manifest Catholicism, the other insisting at the time on the Roman pre-eminence and the indivisible unity of the Church (and now also upon the note of a greater appearance of Catholicism,) was little careful or able to meet the charge brought against it with regard to Orthodoxy.
The Eastern section of Christendom in condemning the Latins urged openly that they had become heterodox, and assumed or implied tacitly that therefore they could not be Catholic, while their own Eastern Church, in spite of any appearances to her disadvantage, must be also Catholic, because she was unquestionably Orthodox. The Latins retorted that having on their aide the See of Peter (to which was attached the unity and Catholicity of the Church), they must therefore, in spite of any appearances to their disadvantage, be also Orthodox, while the Easterns refusing to follow them, and so breaking off from unity, could not really have any advantage in respect of Orthodoxy, whatever appearances they might think they had in their favour.
Each side had its own strong point, on which it insisted: neither side answered fairly or adequately to the objection of the other. Each alike dissembled the point of its own apparent disadvantage, and trusted to that point on which it felt itself strong to overbalance and hide its weakness.
Under such circumstances if the two contending bodies had been at the first equal in strength the one to the other, and had remained so since, the two forces would have absolutely neutralized one another, and it would have seemed to us now that cither there is no such thing in existence as the Church of the Creed, at once Orthodox and universal, (the two destroying one another,) or else that the two conflicting bodies are both equally the Church, that is parts of the Church, their conflict and external separation being only a superficial accident and disease, and not reaching to the essential orthodoxy and Catholicity inherent in them both.
But whatever may have seemed to be the case at the first separation, when the two sides were in point of extent and in the number of their Bishops nearly equal, (though even then the dignity of the elder Rome and the pre-eminence of the See and Martyrion of Peter turned the balance of mere authority much in favour of the West,) there is certainly no such equality existing now. As time has gone on the evidences of Eastern superiority in respect of Orthodoxy have remained much what they were, while changes have taken place in the world and in Christendom which have greatly increased the advantages of the Westerns in respect of Catholicism.
The so-called “Catholic” or “Roman-Catholic Church appears now plainly to all men to be really Catholic or universally diffused (and this is one part at least of the idea of Catholicism,) in a degree in which the so-called ” Orthodox” Church does not appear to be so. This is a fact, about which there can be no doubt, and no mistake. But on the other side it is only to those who think so that the so-called “Orthodox” Church appears to be really orthodox in a degree in which the so-called ” Catholic” Church does not appear to be so; or that the apparent identity of the spirit of domination in Christian Rome with that of Pagan Rome, and the perpetual self-preaching of the Roman See seem to be strong arguments against the Roman side.
If one is forced to choose upon such data alone, it is clear that we may more easily and more properly suspect of error even the strongest convictions of individuals or minorities as to a deep question of orthodoxy or heterodoxy, than doubt the common sense and sight of all men as to the advantage of superior visible Catholicity, which is a plain matter of fact.
Either then our personal or inherited opinion that the self-called “Orthodox” Church is really orthodox, and the self-called “Catholic” Church heterodox, must be sacrificed and reversed, so as to make a superior Orthodoxy about which we can doubt submit to a superior Catholicism about which we cannot doubt; or else, if we cannot rid ourselves of our convictions, and yet see the absurdity of supposing a greater apparent Catholicism to be for centuries opposed to true Catholicism and to Orthodoxy, we must infer that the opinion and assumption of there being an essential difference between the two sides (seeing that it leads to such difficulties and absurdities,) is itself false: and we must reconcile the conflicting phenomena of superior Orthodoxy on the one side and superior Catholicism on the other by supposing that the quarrel and schism of the East and West, of the Greeks and Latins, is superficial only, and not essential; and that in some way or other both parts together have continued since their quarrel to constitute the Universal Church, just as they did before the quarrel; and that their true inward unity has no more been broken by their long-standing outward schism, than the true inward unity of the Latin Church was suspended or broken by its disruption into two or even three outward Obediences during seventy years, in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries.
Against such an hypothesis as this there are, no doubt, formidable objections:
In the first place the Latins, fully conscious of their own advantage in the present position of the controversy, will be forward to argue that the outward as well as inward unity of the Church is necessarily always visible and perfect, or, at the least, not liable to such obscuration and interruption as this theory supposes, nor for so long a time: that the theory in question is clearly and peremptorily rejected by both parties; so that any one maintaining it rests upon the merest private judgment against all that either is or pretends to be authority: in fine, that one must choose simply between the two. If it is impossible to embrace as oecumenical an “Orthodoxy” which plainly is not oecumenical, you must be content to stifle all misgivings and receive as orthodox a “Catholicism” which may possibly be orthodox, even though it has strong appearances, and the voice of a large minority, and private judgment against it.
The Easterns, on the other hand, little used to abstract controversy, are either insensible to the disadvantages of their theological position, and careless to improve it; or, if they ever feel that Rome has some advantage, this excites only a perplexity and indignation like what they may feel at the temporary exaltation and tyranny of infidel Empires. Truth, they say, is not at any moment, nor even during any given course of centuries, to be measured by mere geographical extent, or by numbers: nor, so long as God’s promises given to the true Church are generally and sufficiently accomplished to Orthodoxy, is another community, which plainly rebels against the oecumenical law, to be preferred merely because it is larger, even though it may continue to be larger for centuries. Rather, on the contrary, the very zeal of those who are perpetually crying, “The Temple of the Lord, the Temple of the Lord, the Temple of the Lord are we,” and who in this zeal are ever compassing sea and land to make one proselyte, is a great sign that they are far from the true Temple of the Lord, and rather like to the Jews of old, who boasting of the Temple, and confidently identifying it with themselves as children of Abraham, but making it subservient to their own wills, destroyed the true Temple, and crucified as a blasphemer against the Temple the Lord of the Temple Himself. While, on the other hand, the Orthodox, though failing greatly, no doubt, in respect of that zeal and charity which they ought to show for the conversion of the world, and for the reunion in one of all Christians, yet in this are faulty only as almost all men in this evil age (and the Latins equally with others,) are faulty with respect to all virtues and duties which are simply debts to God and man, and which find no adventitious incitements from interest, ambition, or rivalry, within ourselves.
This is what is said on both sides: and once more we must allow that the Latin arguments are the stronger. For, in spite of all that can be said, if the true Church is “a city set on a hill, which cannot be hid,” it must be perplexing to the eyes of a man seeking the true Church to see at once two hills and two cities more or less answering in appearance to what he seeks: and it must sound paradoxical to such an one to hear himself invited to the smaller city and to the lesser hill, rather than to the greater. Even a Greek Christian must feel this, if he chances to hear a member of the Nestorian Church, now reduced to sixty thousand souls in the mountains of Kurdistan, use his own argument that the true Church is not to be discerned by mere extent or numbers. And though there is, doubtless, a vast difference between the self-called “Orthodox” Church and the Nestorian, yet, so far as this argument goes, the difference is not in kind but only in degree. They are both minorities; the one a very small, the other a very large minority; the one making a preposterous demand, the other a less exorbitant demand on private judgment to unite with it against a greater apparent authority. But if a certain degree of inferiority in numbers and extent reduces the claim of the Nestorian Church to an absurdity, then it is clear that any degree of such inferiority must involve some disadvantage to that Church or side to which it attaches. And that this is so is further shown by the fact that men of virtue and piety are often found to pass from the Eastern to the Roman-Catholic Communion: and such men almost always give this as their chief reason, that the apparent authority and universality of the Roman-Catholic Church outweighs the self-asserted Orthodoxy of the Easterns who are only a minority: while no instance, perhaps, or scarcely any instance, can be adduced even of an individual Latin Bishop, Priest, or layman of acknowledged piety and learning passing over to the Eastern Church from a conviction that it alone is Orthodox, and therefore, in spite of all appearances, also Catholic.
Notwithstanding, however, the above objections from the two sides, and the confessed advantage of the Latins if one is forced to a choice, the theory that the two bodies together constitute the Catholic Church may still be true, and to be accepted. The existence of great difficulties and objections against it is no reason for rejecting it, unless we are also convinced that those difficulties and objections are greater than those which make against either the exclusive Greek or the exclusive Latin theory.
For, without describing them at length, it is plain that the phenomena of the Eastern Church (to say nothing of internal phenomena within the Latin Church herself, or of the view any man may take of particular controversies,) do oppose considerable difficulties to the exclusive Latin theory, difficulties not to be summarily dismissed in a couple of lines. On the other hand, it is also plain that the phenomena of the Latin or Roman-Catholic Church oppose still greater difficulties to the exclusive Eastern theory. The question then is not whether the difficulties and objections making against the third theory (that the two Churches are after all intrinsically one, and their estrangement only superficial,) are great, but whether they are greater than those which lie against either the exclusive Greek or the exclusive Latin theory, and especially against the latter which is confessed to be the stronger of the two.
If any one agrees with the writer that, upon the whole, the difficulty of supposing that the Greek and Latin Churches together still continue to constitute now after their quarrel, as before, the universal Church, is less than the difficulty of supposing that either the Greeks or the Latins are simply and absolutely cut off (as the Arians, Nestorians, and Monophysites have been cut off,) from Orthodoxy and Catholicism, to such a one it will be natural to inquire what signs there may be in ecclesiastical history, or in the present language and feelings of Greeks and Latins respectively, to corroborate that theory which he is inclined for its own sake to accept.
I. In the first place, it must strike every one as extraordinary, and contrary to all experience of ecclesiastical history, if either the Greek or the Latin Church had really fallen into heresy, that the process of their outward alienation and separation should have been so gradual and indistinct, extending from Photius to Cerularius, and even beyond, over a space of more than two hundred years: whereas in the case of all other heresies there have always been holy and learned Bishops and Doctors who denounced them as such from the very time of their first appearance, and who from first to last constantly refused to communicate either with the heretics themselves, or with such as from weakness communicated with them, till they procured the complete and final condemnation of the heresy by the Church at large. But in this case Photius himself, who so publicly and with such effect anathematized the maintainers of the Filioque when he had reasons for attacking Rome, had only a little before, when it suited him to be at peace, thought himself justified in writing that the Greeks and Latins differed only “peri mikron tinon” alluding then unquestionably to this same difference of the Filioque as much as, or more than, to any other. And on the other hand, if the denial of the Filioque by the Greeks was a heresy, (as was maintained afterwards by the Papal Legate Cardinal Humbert, who absurdly charged them with having expunged it from the Creed,) then how could the Popes of Rome come, as they did by their Legates, into the East after Photius and the Easterns had so publicly condemned the Filioque as an error and even as heresy, and take part in and preside in Eastern Councils without saying a word in defence of the truth or for the condemnation of error on this point? dissembling upon it altogether, deposing Photius only on grounds of irregularity, without hinting any suspicion of his orthodoxy, reciting the Creed in the form defended by his Anathemas, and even, as it seems, silently assenting to the repetition of the same Anathemas against the insertion of the addition?
Again, if the Latins were heretics, how could the Greeks so publicly and so repeatedly, from the time of Photius to the present day, offer to make union with them if only the interpolation were omitted from the Creed, without insisting on any condemnation or retractation of the doctrine itself as heresy? And on the other hand, if the Greek denial of the Filioque was heresy or heterodoxy, how could Pope Leo III by setting up in his two silver shields or tables a public protest against that addition to the Creed which was pressed for by the envoys of Charlemagne, have been showing his love for orthodoxy, and his care lest it should be tampered with ? “Haec Leo posui amore et cauteld orthodoxte Fidei.” Or if it were schism and apostacy from the unity of the Catholic Church for the Easterns to resist the See of Peter when afterwards it countenanced and adopted and even enjoined that novelty, how could the same Pope Leo III who has just been mentioned insist that both he, the Pope himself, and all other Catholic Christians were so subject to the decrees of the Oecumenical Councils forbidding all alteration of the Creed, that if they inserted the clause in question, however orthodox they might think it, they would make it impossible for any man afterwards either to teach, or sing, or say the Creed without blame? Or how could another Pope, John VIII, half a century later, write to Photius, as he did, agreeing with him on this point, condemning strongly the authors of the innovation, and only demanding time and patience on the part of the Easterns, till they should be able to correct in the West so great a prevarication? Or, how could the same Pope, after having summoned to Rome the Apostles of the Slavonians, St. Cyril and St. Methodius, accused as heretics by German Bishops for refusing the interpolation and condemning the doctrine it embodied, how, I say, could the same Pope, John the Eighth, have justified those holy men merely because Rome had not yet herself adopted, though she tolerated in others, the interpolation?
II. Assuming it to be true (what it would need a separate dissertation to prove at length,) that the alienation of the two Churches was owing in great measure to a spirit which grew up gradually within each of them from below, and that, important as were the acts and motives and pretexts of Photius and Cerularius and the Byzantine Court (and especially the matter of the Filioque,) on the one side, and the swellings of Papal Supremacy on the other, still the main forces causing the ultimate separation were rather of a popular kind, consisting in national antipathies between the German-Latins, and the Greeks and Slavonians, and mixed with these ritual prejudices and antipathies, then, in whatever degree any man comes to see and understand this, he will be the more strengthened in the opinion that there is not, probably, besides at the root of this vast and unhappy and long-standing schism any essential theological error either on the one side or the other, but rather moral and spiritual degeneracy on both sides, which has been permitted to work out its own punishment. Because iniquity abounded therefore the love of the brethren waxed cold: and those powerful natural principles of alienation and divergence which though they had early appeared in the Church, and had been on the increase, had yet for centuries been overcome and held together into unity by grace, have rent the visible Church, like the twelve tribes of Israel of old, into two great separate branches.
III. But to leave these general considerations, and to come to matters of fact and history: we find that even after Cerularius, and down to the present day, both the Latins and the Greeks have shown many signs of a deep consciousness that their rivals still belong to the Catholic Church in a sense in which no other heretics or schismatics can be said to do so.
As for the Latins, we see this truth well illustrated by the inconsistent expressions of Pope Gregory VII and Pope Urban II in proposing and preaching the first Crusade. As it were in the same breath Pope Gregory VII writes that a main object with him is to force upon the Eastern Church, which differs from us about the Holy Ghost, and by the instigation of the devil falls away from the Catholic faith, the decision of the faith of Peter, while Pope Urban exhorts all the West to deliver from the oppression of the infidels in Palestine our dear brethren, our very true brethren, and co-heirs of the heavenly kingdom; to save the Church of God from suffering loss to the faith; to defend the Eastern Church, from which hath flowed all our salvation, which suckled us with the divine milk, and first delivered to us the sacred doctrines of the Gospel. And again: their object is at once to promote the general interest of Christianity, and the most desirable exaltation of our Latin Church in particular. With the like inconsistency, the Crusaders, when they first took the city of Antioch, restored with much honour the Greek Patriarch to his chair, thinking this, as William of Tyre writes, more agreeable to the Canons and to the constitutions of the holy Fathers, than to elect and consecrate a Patriarch of our own Latinity: though scarce two years after, changing their minds, they obliged him to retire to Constantinople, and set up a Latin Patriarch. And when they took Jerusalem and Palestine they made a Latin Patriarch there and a Latin Hierarchy at once, expelling the Greek: and at Constantinople, and throughout a great part of the Levant, how they treated their “dear brethren,” their “very true brethren,” and “co-heirs of the heavenly kingdom,” how they did to their Churches exactly what the Turks had done to them in Palestine, and created everywhere a Latin hierarchy, needs not here to be described.
But in the way of Latin admissions in favour of the Eastern Church, no stronger testimony can be conceived than that afforded by the Council of Florence itself, at which, though for the future the Greeks were to submit absolutely to Rome, yet for the past the existence of their Church, of the Greek or Eastern Church as distinguished from the Latin, with all her Saints, was retrospectively recognized. The Pope had recognized the Patriarch of Constantinople as a brother before the opening of the Council, and the other Patriarchs as the legitimate possessors of their Sees; and “a holy union of the two Churches” was thought afterwards to have been concluded without either of them retracting or yielding to the other, both appearing, on explanation, to have all along virtually meant the same thing. Such was the account given by Latin Bishops returning from the Council; and such is the footing on which those Uniats who have accepted the terms of the Council of Florence stand even at the present day with regard to the non-united Church of their ancestors from the time of Cerularius to the formation of the Unia. And some Latin writers connected with the Uniats, seeing the retrospective latitude of the terms accorded to them, and desiring at once to veil the theological consequences of such latitude, and to make the bridge between the two Communions as serviceable for the future as possible, have been emboldened to attempt the most curious and extensive falsifications of history, writing down the whole Eastern Church, in spite of the bitter animosity of so many centuries, as having been all along devoted to the Pope and to “Catholicism,” in their sense of the word, down to the very formation of their Uniat congregations; and the Russian Church, more especially, as having been perfectly “Catholic” down to the time of the Metropolitan of Moscow Photius. Some authors prolong its orthodoxy even to the time of Peter the Great!
Lastly, not the weakest testimony is the continued use of the expressions “Greek Church,” and “Eastern Church,” as distinguished from “Latin Church,” and “Western Church,” and of “the Greeks,” or “the Easterns,” as distinguished from “the Latins,” or “Westerns.” The force of this language was felt and pointed out by one of the most powerful of modern Ultramontane writers, the Count Joseph De Maistre; and he suggested as a remedy for its evil tendency the substitution of the epithet “Photienne.” After the publication of his treatise the Greek or Eastern or Orthodox Churches were no longer to be called by any of these titles, but were to become “les Eglises Photiennes,” and therefore, of course, manifest nullities. But it is more reasonable, perhaps, to think that the theory of a talented writer, when it conflicts with language rooted in continuous history and in the popular use and mind and conscience of all Christendom, is thereby shown to be false, than to expect that the world will remodel its language so as to sustain the theory of an individual, even though that theory should be embraced by the whole Roman-Catholic or Latin Communion. An Anglican theory may require that the Anglican Church should, within her own dioceses at least, be orthodox and Catholic, and an individual or a party may do their best to give her such titles; but the use and conscience of the world at large will continue to refuse them. A Greek theory may lead a Greek to dissemble the strength accruing to the Latins from their greater apparent universality, and from their possession of the title “Catholic,” and of the idea which it embodies; but this advantage will not therefore cease to exist and to be felt, and even to convert occasionally Greeks and Russians to the Roman Communion, so long as the two Churches remain in their present respective attitudes. And in like manner the advantage, such as it is, which is given to the Easterns by the continuance to the present day even among the Latins of the popular distinction of the Latin Church from the Greek, and of the Western from the Eastern, is one of which it is beyond tin- power of either individuals or parties to deprive them.
On the side of the Easterns their continued admission of the existence of the Latin Church as a part of the true Catholic Church is manifest not only from their conduct on all public occasions, whenever there has been any communication with a view to reunion, but also from the common use of the same or similar language to what has been mentioned above in the case of the Latins: and this in a much greater degree. Indeed the doubt most likely to arise in the mind of any one who attentively considers the popular use of language among members of the Eastern Communion (joined with the almost total absence of zeal for the conversion of the Latins,) is not whether they admit the true life of the Roman-Catholic Church, but whether they do not unwittingly doubt or deny their own. The Latins unmistakeably associate both the title and the idea of Catholicism with their own Church, and only by a little lingering inconsistency betray a consciousness of doubt in having narrowed their Catholicism to its present definition: but the Easterns by taking for themselves, as they do, local and particular titles, such as “Eastern,” “Greek,” or “Greco-Russ,” as distinctive of their Church and religion, by conceding practically the Greek epithet “Catholic” as a distinctive appellation to the Latins, and by showing so little disposition to dwell either upon the word or the idea for themselves, go far to admit that they are merely a particular Church, or an aggregate of particular Churches; that is, (so far as there may be in them any radical hostility to the remaining complement of Catholicism,) either schismatical or heretical, or both. But this is more than we want: it is enough for our purpose to say that the popular speech and ideas of the Easterns abundantly recognize the Roman-Catholic Church as a part, at least, of the true Catholic Church. No better instance, perhaps, can be adduced of this than the observation so common in the mouths of Easterns, and not of ignorant people only but of the most learned of their clergy and laity, that there have been but Seven General Councils, and that other Councils held since have not been of equal authority “because of the division of the Churches:” or again, that a General Council now is impossible (that is, among themselves, or among the Latins,) for the same reason. It is true that this same admission seems to have been made also by the Latins in favour of the Greeks when they were willing that the Council of Florence, if only it were accepted, should be reputed and called the “Eighth General Council:” and the galleys of Pope Eugenius and of the Synod of Basle racing against each other, and contending for the accession of the Greeks, hint something of the same sort. But of Greek admissions in favour of the Latins, one of the most remarkable in modern times is that contained in the Acts of the Synod of Bethlehem held under Dositheus Patriarch of Jerusalem in 1672. This Synod, in speaking of the Church, repeatedly distinguishes the “Western” from the “Eastern,” and both from “the whole Catholic Church;” and blames the Lutherans and Calvinists for having invented heresies, and for having gone forth from “that Church” (the Western or Latin certainly,) “in which their ancestors abiding had obtained salvation.”
Yet with all these mutual admissions, or half-admissions, in favour of one another, the two Churches are practically at war. The Latins in the middle ages, without any shadow of reason, from mere hatred, re-baptized the Easterns in Poland and Germany; and still reconcile them individually as schismatics or heretics, or as both. And the Easterns in turn reconcile Latin proselytes as from heresy to the true Church, in Russia anointing them with Chrism, like Arians or Macedonians, in the Levant even Baptizing them, like Jews or Turks or Heathens.
As for the Latins, who are the stronger party, their conduct towards the Greeks is both politic and necessary: for any other conduct would be in fact to concede to them the main question between the Churches. But as regards the Greeks, who are the weaker party, and as regards the interest of that truth which they think they represent, it will be worth while to consider the origin of their present custom, and its effect on their controversial position, and the question what would be the bearing and tendency of a contrary practice.
The complete cutting off from the Catholic and Orthodox Church of any body of men who are truly and simply heretics, and the practice of reconciling them, if they return, whether in a body or as individuals, as has been done with Arians, Macedonians, Ncstorians, Mouophysites, and others, is as far from having any bad effect on the Church herself, as is the cutting away of dead wood far from hurting a living tree. On the contrary, for the Church to have remained in Communion with death would have affected her own life. But if we suppose a case where there is disease in any part of a living body but not death, so that the diseased part remains still a living part, then the effect of a total severance of the more sound part from the diseased will have a contrary and pernicious effect both on the sound part and on the diseased. For the diseased part will have no longer any influence in contact with it to correct it; and the sound part will be mutilated, or it may be, even destroyed by losing its coherence with those other parts which are no less necessary than itself (it may be even more necessary,) to the perfection or life of the whole body. Any one can understand this in the case of a natural living body. And thus, even if the Eastern Church were to the Latin in extent and importance as two thirds to one third, and were spread over the whole globe, and possessed the idea and the title of “Catholic,” still, if the Latins were not really and mortally heretics essentially as well as by mere form, it would have been a most uncharitable and pernicious fault to separate them altogether from Communion as heretics, and abandon them to their error, and so lose all chance of influencing them. But much more is this the case when they are not only not essentially heretics, but possess so large a share and interest in the universal body, and such great superiorities in some respects, that the Eastern Church in cutting them off not only loses all influence over them, but seems even rather to bring into question her own existence than to affect theirs. On the other hand, if the sound part were to remain in union with the diseased, and by contact to preserve its influence, then even a smaller part which should be sound and healthy might correct disease and renew health even in a larger, always supposing that there was no careless or indifferent toleration of the disease or error.
As things now are, the Eastern Church has absolutely no influence on the Western. She has cut herself off: and the Western, being materially the stronger and larger of the two, strengthens herself by this very separation in her errors, and boldly calls on all to choose the one Communion or the other. But let any one consider what would be the prospect for “Orthodoxy,” if only one national Church of the present Latin Communion, (let us suppose the Gallican,) without withdrawing from the rest, confessed the common fault, and called upon the rest to join in amending it; or, amending it at once for itself, received for the future only those laity and clergy from other branches of the Latin Communion, who, on examination, should be found to be personally free from the disposition to defend error? Would not such a state of things be most hopeful? And should we not expect to see immediately individuals in other Latin Churches both of the clergy and laity avowing their agreement and sympathy, and so moving from all quarters the whole body towards amendment? But if any one local Church of the present Latin Communion would probably by such conduct exert so great an influence, and form so hopeful a party, what would not be the influence of the Eastern Church, of one whole third part of Christendom, if only she had preserved, or if she were now to restore her coherence, and so were to become capable of having influence at all? Certainly there can be no doubt that, if she has truth on her side, she would speedily effect the reformation of the West. This attitude might be taken up by the Eastern Church if she were in practice to adopt some such rule as the following; that—
“If any persons coming from the Latins seek to communicate in any Orthodox Diocese, such persons shall first be examined, and if they are found willing to recite the Creed in the Canonical form, and personally free from malicious opposition to Orthodoxy on that and other points, they shall be received as brethren, without troubling them for the existence of faults which they acquiesce in only under the idea of authority, but are personally not unwilling to see reformed.”
Such an attitude towards the Latins, an attitude of half-excommunication and half-recognition, would correspond with that view which we have shown to be taken of the Latin Church by the conscience of the Eastern, (namely, that on the great point it is materially, or in point of outward form, heretical without being intrinsically so, and on other points maintains certain grave errors and corruptions which yet arc not heresies;) and it would give the Eastern Church (without any recognition of error small or great,) the prospect of exerting a salutary and healing influence over the whole West, and of restoring the unity of the whole body.
But it may be objected that such a course is new, unheard of, inconsistent, impracticable; a mere scheme of human policy, invented after a separation of a thousand years to suit the apparent difficulties of the case. It is no such thing. Whatever force there may be in the arguments which have been now alleged in favour of such a course, it has another and an anterior claim upon the attention of all members of the Eastern Church, namely this, that it is the view which was first taken, and by the holiest and wisest men, in their own Church after the completion of the Schism. For after the full ascertainment of the depth of the differences between the East and the West, after the mutual anathemas of the Archbishops of old and new Rome, after the time not of Photius only but of Cerularius, when in consequence of the Latins still continuing from long habit as individuals to recognize the Eastern Church, and to seek the Communion from its Clergy, the question arose how they ought to be treated, and some said in one way, and some in another, and this question was referred to the most holy and learned Bishops of the Eastern Church, such as Theophylact of Bulgaria and Demetrius Chomatenus, the reply and sentence of such men was this: that the Latins applying for Communion should be examined individually, and if not found malicious maintainers of the errors condemned by the Church, should be received as brethren.
But it seemed more consistent and logical to certain Canonists (especially to Theodore Balsamon,) to reason thus: “We excommunicate the Pope of Rome for certain errors: all the Westerns adhere to him, and to his errors; therefore all the Westerns are to be treated simply as other heretics, and a Form must be provided for their abjuration and reconciliation:” (for the gall of bitterness had not yet drenched the Greeks so deeply as to settle the point that the Latins were as heathens and unbaptized: it was enough then for general practice that a Form should be provided for their reconciliation.) For their reconciliation to what? let us ask; (and let the reader attend to this question:) To the Catholic truth of the Catholic or Universal Church, as in the case of all other heretics? No; but to the Catholic truth or Orthodoxy of the “Eastern” or “Greek,” that is, of a particular would-be universal Church: an attempt and a pretension by its own language (necessarily employed) self-refuted and self-condemned. Thus the shortsighted reasonings of controversial Canonists were preferred to the judgments of Saints: the absolute separation of the two Churches has been fixed and stereotyped in the Eastern as well as in the Latin Church-law and ritual: the definition of the primary sacrament of Baptism itself, and the grace of regeneration for the larger part of Christendom, has been made to depend upon the variable will of men, upon the allowance or non-allowance of necessity or economy by spiteful rivals, galled by the sense of their inferiority. Rome profits by the error; “Orthodoxy ” suffers by it. Heathens and Turks and Sectaries sneer, and draw arguments from the divisions of the Apostolic Church against Christianity itself; and ” the Son of God,” as was foretold by Theophylact, has ” suffered a great damage in that heritage which is given Him among the Gentiles.”
Here follows an extract from the Answers of Demetrius Chomatenus, Archbishop of Bulgaria (a.d. 1203,) to Constantine Cabasilas, Archbishop of Dyrrachium.
— Count the total number of Western Europeans, regardless of religion or lack thereof.
— Then count the total number of (Eastern) Orthodox.
— Then count the total number of Catholics in the Americas and Australia.
— And then compare these three numbers. Thank You.
(Look, I’m sorry, but his whole argument basically relies on the fact that Western Europe neighbours the Atlantic Ocean, and while we were busy fighting off the Ottomans, they were busy sailing and conquering — and this took place for the last half of the millennium).
For the record, Palmer was an Anglican and the source of the “Branch theory” of the Church beloved of Anglo-Catholics generally. I think it safe to say that both Catholics and Orthodoxy would have no difficulty dismissing his ecclesiology.
I really wish we could step away from this historical argument as it proves nothing. I don’t accept Lucian’s take that Rome’s attraction was determined by geography and Ottoman oppression (Eastern Orthodoxy was not noticeably successful in the evangelization of the Baltic, China, Central Asia, or Africa for example). Nevertheless, a powerful argument can be made that the extent of evangelization between 1050 and 1950 was most directly related to availability and application of resources mobilized by Christian monarchs. The Rus princes and the Czars who followed them seemed to have little interest in spreading the faith beyond areas under their immediate control. I don’t really think we need to look much farther than this in explaining Orthodoxy’s comparative lack of hypertrophy.
Quick clarification: When I post a quote or an essay from another author, don’t assume that I am in complete, or even substantial, agreement with every idea or argument contained therein.
And I agree with both Lucian and Michaël that the “numbers argument” is very weak, and that the classical High Church Anglican “branch theory” is never going to be acceptable to Catholics or Orthodox. (It should be noted that just two years after penning this essay, he effectively renounced the “branch theory” by his reception into the Roman Catholic Church).
However, I’ve always been fascinated by Palmer, and I find the above to be a very interesting read. I do think he’s on to something (and in this he’s backed up by a number of more recent, and arguably better informed, scholars and theologians, both Eastern and Western) when he suggests that the boundaries of the post-schismatic Churches have, historically, been much more fluid than is generally assumed.
Let me also add that one of the reasons this blog exists is to suss out and dissect bad polemical arguments on both sides: a perfect example would be the “numbers argument” Lucian and Michael object to.
“Men of virtue and piety are often found to pass from the Eastern to the Roman-Catholic Communion…while no instance, perhaps, or scarcely any instance, can be adduced even of an individual Latin Bishop, Priest, or layman of acknowledged piety and learning passing over to the Eastern Church from a conviction that it alone is Orthodox, and therefore, in spite of all appearances, also Catholic.”
Things have changed from Palmer’s day: I myself know men (and women) of undoubted piety and learning who have done precisely that. Of course, it proves nothing; other than – perhaps – the fact that doctrinal confusion and the tolerance of manifest heresy within the RC Church, unimaginable in Palmer’s day, has sapped the confidence of many Catholics as to the exclusive truth claims of their Church.
However, it is manifest also that the ecclesiology of Vatican II has to some extent at least mitigated this exclusive claim by elaborating a sacramental ecclesiology which has replaced an excessively juridical one as the basic paradim, and admits talk of degrees of communion. That this ecclesiology is not entirely new; that it is to be read in a “hermeneutic of reform without discontinuity” with previous practice and teaching, is already apparent from what Palmer writes. It is, moreover, proved by the fact that no competent RC authority has ever required the repetition of sacraments received in the EO Church, and by the summoning of the EO hierarchs to Trent and Vatican I. However imperious this summons appeared to its recipients (and this is the reason why the sending of EO observers to Vatican II was made conditional upon its not being repeated) it nevertheless shows that the RC Church has never ceased to view the EO hierarchy as true successors of the apostles, having true jurisdiction over authentic canonical churches.
Would that this recognition were entirely reciprocal. The reception of Benedict XVI at the Phanar wearing the insignia of his episcopal office, and his commemoration in an at least quasi-liturgical context there, were implicit recognitions of the same by the EP. However, JPII was allowed to visit Greece only on condition he refrain from wearing insignia of priestly office (the stole) in public, and RC converts to Orthodoxy in Greece frequently have re-baptism imposed upon them, despite the fact that this is not the official policy of the Greek Orthodox Church outside Athos. The lack of an explicit and unanimous recognition of our sacraments by the Orthodox Church is a major obstacle to the credibility of ecumenical progress, and the Vatican has shown in this regards a diplomatic patience far removed from the imperious, domineering rhetoric of the past.
Michael,
conquering the primitive and under-developed natives of the Americas, Australia and Oceania is ONE thing… and conquering China, India, or the Ottoman Empire is quite another. (Besides, the Russians already brought ENOUGH shame upon us with heir pogroms, so that would’ve been the LAST thing we needed).
Fr. Paul,
I am reminded of my frequent arguments with Fr. Hart (of the “Continuum” fame) regarding the validity of Anglican orders. Non sacramental recognition need not necessarily imply hostility or constitute grounds for offense, if such non-recognition rests on genuine and considered differences in sacramental theology (as exist between Catholicism and classical Anglicanism).
What I find disturbing in this Greek practice is not the non-recognition per se (which, in any case, only affects those who choose to enter Orthodoxy in Greece), but the arbitrary inconsistency of its application to which you have called attention.
All to often I find Orthodox posters condemning Catholicism for this or that element of ritual or ecclesiological praxis for which precedents can be found in contemporary or historic Orthodoxy (e.g.: communion in one specie, use of unleaved communion bread, overlaping dioceses, multiple bishops in one diocese or transfers of bishops from one diocese to another, episcopal jurisdictional primacy, etc…).
When challenged on this, the standard response takes either one of two forms: either abuses-do-exist-in-Orthodoxy-but-these-will-be-corrected-in-the-fullness-of-time-whereas-those-in-Catholicism-are-inherent-in-her-nature or the yet more troubling we-are-the-real-Orthodox-whereas-the-Orthodox-wanabee-non-conformists-you-allude-to-are-just-benighted-ecumenist-crypto-apostates.
I have to admit, however, that I find a lot less of this Athonite bigotry from Orthodox posters on this site than on a number of others (including some explicitly dedicated to Catholic apologetics). Yet I am still left with the question of “who speaks for Orthodoxy?”
Lucian,
When the pagan Franks conquered Gaul, the Gallic Church converted them. When the pagan Saxons invaded Britain, Rome converted them. Granted that Islam might be inoculated agains this form of Christian witness, but shamanistic Mongols already significantly penetrated by pre-Ephesian Christianity…?
There are accounts of Latin and “Nestorian” missionaries preaching at the court of the Khan in the 13th century (albeit with little success). What was Russian Orthodoxy doing at the time? (This is not a rhetorical question: I honestly don’t know the answer, but am puzzled at the apparent historical silence.) I cannot help but suspect that precocious stirrings of phyletist self-sufficiency may have played a decisive role in a differential historical experience. Not that this would prove anything, one way or the other, about the locus of the OTC. It does seem, however, that after the conversion of the Slavs, Orthodoxy largely lost its missionary impulse. It had opportunities that the Latin West could not exploit, but failed to pursue them.
Some Mongols (in Russia an Mongolia) practice Orthodoxy in syncretism with their usual shamanistic spirituality (Tengriism), and with Buddhism. (Sorry if that’s not the answer You were searching for).
Yet I am still left with the question of “who speaks for Orthodoxy?”
Who speaks for Orthodox Judaism? Or for Sunni Islam? Or for Theravada Buddhism? Or for Monophysitism? The followers of all these religions are united by a common faith and by a common practice: it’s that simple. Doctrine is a given, not something to loose all day wondering about in what it consists. When one joins or enters, one has to accept the tenets. Period. End of story. And then to live them out. What’s so complicated? You basically subscribe to a set of dogmas. Yes, there are leaders and people endowed with authority in every one of these religions: but none of them is anything even remotely resembling a Pope.
Sorry Lucian, but things are not that simple (not that simplicity is the unambiguous virtue you seem to suggest). Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism (I don’t know of any real monophysites) are not credal religions in the same sense as Christianity. They are religions of praxis with only minimal binding credal content. They do not look to their religious leaders for “what to believe”, but for “what is the law” or “how to behave.” Their understandings of “heresy,” to the extent the concept has any purchase with them, relates to right action and not right thought.
My question was how to respond to Orthodox polemicists who claim that Catholics are heretics and that all Catholic sacraments lack grace, when these are demonstrably not views held by all Orthodox bishops.
I am not looking for a single presiding authority, but for the grounds on which some Orthodox can purport to speak authoritatively in such matters in opposition to Orthodox ordinaries with whom they yet remain in grudging communion.
If I can pick and choose amongst Orthodox positions, what is to stop me from accepting the most latinophile and dismissing the others as cranks?
Michael,
First of all, don’t buy into all that “orthopraxy vs orthodoxy” thing. And Islam and Judaism don’t have a “minimal binding credal content”. Secondly, monophysites or myaphysites do exist, and they’re not like us, and they don’t seem to lack a Pope either. Also, when someone seems to be very latino-phile, be sure You understand the precise way he sees the differences in doctrine among us. (i.e., if s/he says the Filioque is acceptable under such and such conditions, or requiring Papal primacy to have a certain meaning to be fully Orthodox, make sure that You pay exact atention what these terms are, ok?). You will probably very soon find out that those who object to the dogmatic differences do so based on other meanings of said terms then those who are apparently more willing or inclined to accept them with certain modifiers attached. — Does this answer satisfy Your question?
1. I would appreciate an explanation of what you mean by “orthopraxy vs orthodoxy”.
2. I trust that you are aware of just how short the Muslim creed actually is, and how indistinguishable it is from sect to sect. As for credal orthodox Judaism, it is limited to a literal reading of the Torah. Some orthodox Jews, for example, believe in life after death, others believe in metempsychosis, and yet others believe in soul extinction. In no case does one’s ultimate fate in orthodox Judaism depend on adhering to a correct soteriology.
3. Yes, myaphisites certainly exist. I would consider their patriarchs as authoritative spokesmen. From what I can tell, they argue less than Eastern Orthodox hierarchs and are more consistent in their ecclesiology.
4. Does your answer satisfy my question? Not yet, though it is perhaps a beginning. It may depend on the “orthopraxy vs orthodoxy” thing you alluded to. Since I am not sure what you mean, I can’t tell.
Michael,
All Orthodox Jews believe in the resurrection and the world to come. Those who do not –according to the Talmud– will have no share in the world to come (olam haba). They also do believe in the extinction of the souls of the heathen and un-righteous (since they don’t have a concept of hell; and they believe that gehena is only temporary and is meant for cleansing the soul). And some (kabbalists) do indeed believe in reincarnation (which does not affect their belief in the final resurrection: of the Torah-abiding Jews, and of the righteous Gentiles). — In any case, what they do not have is a Pope. Rabbis? Yes. — I did NOT say that they have NO authority-figures. And the same goes for the Sunni Muslims (sheiks and imams), Theravada Buddhists, and Monophysites (patriarchs): authority figures, yes; unity in doctrine and praxis, yes… but no Pope! Well, not unless You count the Pope of Alexandria.. :-)
Whatever the differences between our churches, I can assuredly say that this is the type of argumentation which is precisely unhelpful (for either side). Lack of ethnic reference on the Roman Catholic side? Really? Where I grew up, every Catholic made reference to ethnicity. The Irish went to one parish and the Italians to another and the Mexicans to another. Sheesh, the whole article is essentially anecdotal observations on a debate for which the author has already made up his mind. As I already said, its simply not helpful for either Catholics or Orthodox.
Lucian, whatever you may think about the need to answer the question “Who speaks for the Church?” it was an important question for the Orthodox Church of the first 7 councils. Orthodox have not really thought collectively about the pastoral ramifications of primacy in a post-imperial Church. I would argue that Rome has not thought much about this either (though certainly more than we) and has merely defaulted to their only apostolic see. Vatican I does not represent an ecclesiology that we can endorse, however, nearly all of the problems of the Orthodox world boil down to a breakdown in primatial structure. Polycarp and Ignatius would be ashamed of our current polity (read their epistles!).
However, our Church is as Orthodox as ever and, generally speaking, lacks the rampant of ideologies flowing through Rome’s seminaries (or so a Roman priest tells me). Rome can learn considerably from our ability hold a common faith through our Eucharistic ecclesiology.
Well, those are my $0.02… (no refunds!) :)
I think the “authority’ within other religions is linked far more to communal aspects than to what can be called creedal or more correctly, in many ways, political allegiance.
The first actual creed, that of Nicea, was as much a political statement, in a very real way, as it was a theological statement, since it was so directly linked to the Roman Empire.
Nate,
In America (or the US), all people come together to form this huge melting-pot of nations, races, and religions: that’s why the American Catholics commenting on this post have the locally-true-but-otherwise-false impression that it is because of Catholicism that they don’t have ethnic parishes any longer… whereas the truth of the matter is that it is so because of Americanism that such is no longer the case. :-\
Just my two bani. (1 Romanian “lion” = 100 “bani”) — the later was a phyletistic pun, BTW, since we were just talkin’ ’bout ethnicity here… :-)
As someone who has been accused of making the “numbers argument,” I would like to clarify, for the umpteenth time, that this is not in fact the argument I have been making. (Not that anyone in this thread was accusing me of this, but I’ve become a tad sensitive on this subject, especially as I believe that my [er, um] somewhat nuanced argument has occasionally been unfairly caricatured as “the numbers argument.” ;))
Anyway, for the record, and not a propos of anything much in the present context: I do not cite Catholic numbers as a proof of Catholic Truth-Claims but rather as a defense against the charge that we papists are so wrong-headed and heterodox. Applying the Gamaliel Test, I contend that, if we were really so wrong-headed and heterodox, we would have died out or at least dwindled into irrelevance a long, long time ago. (And NB, Lucian, the Gamaliel Test operates in a Judaeo-Christian context, and I am applying it to Christian churches — heterodoxy is not an issue outside of Christianity, where the operative terms are “paganism,” “atheism,” “secularism,” etc. So, no, Buddhists and Hindus do not enter into the equation. Thank you.)
Anyway, sorry to get off-topic, but this is a slightly sore spot for me so just thought I’d try to clarify.
Carry on! ;)
Lucian, with all due respect…what qualifies you now as an expert on Americans, Americanism, or American Catholics? I would not dream of making such a sweeping, unqualified assertion about your country or its Orthodox denizens. :)
I still retain my view that what You’re taking to be the result of Catholicism (in American Catholicism) is actually the effect of Americanism. America is, after all, a melting pot (perhaps the melting pot) of all races, ethnicities, and religions — and You don’t have to be an “expert” to know (or simply see) that.
Seriously Diane, it’s not even a good defence. Some Pentecostals have even pointed to the size and extent of “non-Biblical Christianity” as proof that we are in the Great Apostasy associated with End Times. They would lump Catholics and Orthodox together, but it still demonstrates that absolute numbers mean nothing.
As regards Catholicism, it’s thriving, but -then again- so is Protestantism (so as not to call other nonChristian religions to mind again).
Lucian,
So far as I can tell, Diane is the only American Catholic posting here. While influential, American Catholics are a tiny minority in the Church, and the American experience is hardly normative.
P.S.: If I were the Pentecostals, I’ld hold my peace: Charismatics are also thriving (faster and stronger than any other Christian denomination, actually).
Michael: Tell that to Gamaliel. He’s the one who said that, if it’s not of God, it will die out. I’m simply taking my cue from him. ( May I be permitted a small “sheesh” here? Once again, this is NOT the classic “numbers argument,” and I am getting a tad weary of having to say so. ;-))
Lucian: Mainstream Protestantism is indeed in its death throes. Evangelicalism in general is thriving less than you think — the SBC, for instance, is losing numbers. And Pentecostalism, as I’ve pointed out before, is of extremely recent vintage, so it has not yet had a chance to “stand the test of time” (i.e., pass the Gamaliel Test). Moreover, it’s a shining example of the axiom that “God has no grandchildren.” I believe I’ve already elaborated on this…perhaps you overlooked my previous post on the subject? ;)
There were 600 million Protestants in 1992. There are 800 million of them now. And they may switch denominations, but they sure aren’t going away anywhere fast: their numbers are growing, whether due to evangelism, or to natural growth.
Lucian: Most of the denoms that are seeing growth are of recent (revivalist) vintage. Therefore they do NOT pass the Gamaliel Test (which is essentially the test of time). Wait until the Pentecostals and the Emerging Churches have been around for a few centuries. Then tell me whether they’re growing.
The denoms that have been around since the 1600s (Magisterial Protestants, basically) are NOT growing. If you don’t believe me, visit Sweden or England sometime.
Catholicism has been around for 2,000 years (which is at least 1,900 more years of time-testing than Pentecostalism has been through…and even 1,500-plus more than Protestantism has been through). Yet, far from having died off (as per the Gamaliel Test), we are at 1.4 bilion members and counting. Again–that’s sure a funny way for God to tell us how wrong we are.
If you can point to another 2,000-year-old church with 1.4 billion members and growing, then please do so. Thank you!
(sigh)
Diane,
The guys who decrease, and the guys who increase, are on the same team. They live on the same side of the fence. They fight on the same side of the barricade. You take with one hand, you give with the other. Yin and Yang. Balance.
Lucian, if you believe that the denoms spawned by 19th- and 20th-century revivalism are “on the same team” as the Magisterial Protestants, then all I can say is that you truly have no clue. In any case, it remains true that the forms of Protestantism which have been around the longest are in the process of decline and decay. (IOW: They have NOT stood the test of time.) This is NOT true of Catholicism, which has been around 2,000 years.
Again, I ask: Please name another 2,000-year-old Christian Church that has 1.4 billion members. I’m still waiting.
If you cannot name such a church, then perhaps we’d better drop it. We are making Michael sigh. ;)
Lucian,
On a 500 year time-line, the difference between 1992 and 2009 is statistical noise. I would also agree with Diane that you have to separate into buckets the various types of protestants. I would argue that, generally speaking, each protestant denomination looks back to a founder (i.e. Luther, Wesly, Cambell) or an event (Cane Ridge, Azuza Street, etc). As a basic methodology, I would divide up groups based on their principle founder/event. Protestant is too vague and generally means “any church without valid apostolic succession.” :)
Diane,
As one who has travelled fairly extensively, much of it in South America, I do think that it is the case that Roman Catholicism spread not by evangelism, but by imperial conquest (much of which was very unchristian in its methods). I would hardly say that such was the work of God. Certainly, Rome has tried to make the best of a bad situation. And, I think you are right that the Gamaliel argument is better deployed as a defensive manoeuvre than a positive statement of will. However, to point to ill-gotten numbers as a defensive argument is hardly the way to strengthen your case. I think it safe to say that the conditions of the Gamaliel test are:
1. Significant time (the time test)
2. Significant growth (the growth test)
3. Growth was obtained in a God fearing manner (the ethics test)
4. Growth must be obtained against odds (the miracle test)
5. The argument is posed defensively (the defensiveness test)
The pre-Nicene Church certainly passes these tests as do the modern missions of Orthodoxy in Africa and other places. I think the modern missions of Rome to India and East Asia (with the exceptions of the Philippines) pass these tests.
I think that churches spread by imperial conquest generally fail the miracle test and/or the ethics test. This would include probably Kievan Rus for the Orthodox (though the impact of monastic mission here cannot be ignored), South America/Philippines/etc for Catholics, pretty much all of Magisterial Protestantism (which are essentially all state-spread sects) and most of Anglicanism. I would say that an empire which adopts a widely spread religion would not disqualify it. This would include the imperial church under the Roman/Byzantine empire, Egypt, Ethiopia, Georgia, Armenia, etc. It might include the Holy Roman Empire, though it would depend on how much influence you give the Franks on the Great Schism.
Most modern Protestants, especially Pentecostals and Charismatics fail the time test. Methodists, Anabaptists (including Amish) and German Pietists probably fail the growth test.
The difficulty remains that, using this methology, one is unable to say anything for certain. All in all, I don’t think Gamaliel’s test is really a “test” so much as him merely displaying some optimism about Christianity. I think the test itself fails as an empiric test.
Name another Church that has been around 2,000 years and still can read the Scriptures natively in their original language and maintain the original see founded by Peter (Jerusalem) at Pentecost.
Diane, we can all pick of set of criteria that name only our own Church. Such is not helpful argumentation.
Nathaniel, I respectfully suggest that you are missing my point. I am NOT arguing against Orthodoxy’s Truth Claims. I am not even arguing in favor of Catholicism’s Truth Claims. Rather, I am defending Catholcisim against the charge that we papists are so obviously wrong, bad, and heterodox. ;) IOW, I am playing defense, not offense.
Moreover, I am not arbitrarily selecting self-serving criteria. Rather, I am applying precisely the criteria Gamaliel applies in the Acts of the Apostles: If this thing’s not of God, it will die out. I think the fact that Catholicism is still thriving and growing after 2,000 years is sufficient proof that it has passed Gamaliel’s test — that is, it has not died out, not by a long shot; therefore, it’s a pretty sure bet that it is indeed “of God.”
Again, this is not really a numbers argument but rather a “test of time” argument. I am taking it directly from Gamaliel, so, if anyone has an issue with it, please take it up with him. :)
Again, this is NOT intended as an argument either against Orthodoxy’s Truth Claims or in favor of Catholicism’s Truth Claims. It is simply a defense of Catholicism against her detractors, based on the Scriptural “Gamaliel Test.”
I hope this clarifies. I must say I am becoming weary of stating my clarifications over and over again. :D
Nathaniel,
“Name another Church that has been around 2,000 years and still can read the Scriptures natively in their original language and maintain the original see founded by Peter (Jerusalem) at Pentecost.”
Hmm, sounds like the Syriac [Oriental] Orthodox Church to me (at least its Aramaic speaking elements, except of course, that Peter did not found the see of Jerusalem, but Antioch (but then, this points to more Syriacs).
Can we just move on?
The unity and truthfulness of Catholicism cannot be compared to that of the Protestant ecclesiological Big-Bang, if that’s what You mean…
Michael–before we just move on (if it’s OK with you ;-)), may I address Nathaniel’s claim that Catholicism grew mainly through conquest?
I believe this is false and unfair. It also insults the countless Catholic martyrs who died while spreading the Faith — from the martyrs of China and Japan to Saints Isaac Jogues and Jean de Brebeuf, among others, who died among the Hurons.
It is also arguable that Our Lad of Guadalupe played a much larger role in the spread of the Faith in Mexico than the Conquistadores did.
The missionary impulse has long been very strong in the West. It is simply wrong to insist otherwise.
Thank you.
Michael,
While Peter was not the first bishop of Jerusalem, he clearly “founded her” if we are to take the first preaching of the kerygma in Acts 2 as a historical event. I would argue that Acts 2 is the best fulfilment of the prophecy of Matthew 16:18.
diane, I think I understand your argument more than you give me credit for. I’m not impugning your martyrs any more than I’m impugning our own (notice that I criticized and praised mission expansion regardless of what Church backed those expansions!).
You are right, I should have mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe. We too have a shrine there and it should be mentioned as a fantastic example of authentic mission.
However, I would still suggest that I have a fair and balanced understanding of history.
Nathaniel: OK, OK. :) I agree…we are basically on the same page here.
Nathaniel,
Let’s strive for agreement. I agree with Peter’s preeminent role in founding the “the Church” (writ large) *in* Jerusalem. Founding the “see of Jerusalem” as a particular church, however, is another matter. Prior to Peter’s settlement in Antioch, there were no sees — just the universal Church. But we quibble on what I recognize was offered as an ironic aside.
Just to get back on topic, I seem to have done the author of this tract a disavour by identifying him as the author of the “Branch Theory.” It appears there were two William Palmers associated with the Oxford Movement. The first, Sir William Patrick Palmer, was the ecclesiological innovator. The second, just plain William Palmer, is the writer we are meant to be discussing and the one who eventually crossed the Tiber. My bad! :(
I’m not even quibbling, just pointing out the difficult nature of such disputes. One thing I would love to read (and perhaps there is one out there) is a theological paper on:
1. What specifically is the Petrine charism
2. How that charism is identified with Rome (but not Antioch or Jerusalem)
The typical papers I’ve read have answered “everything” for the first one and “because it is!” for the second. Such is not worthy of Roman Catholic theological standards.
I almost agree with Michael’s (sigh).
I think it’s fairly clear that Christianity, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, has a mixed history in its spread.
In the olden days, converting the ruler meant converting the people being ruled. That’s easily seen in the history of Christianity throughout western and eastern Europe up or sideways to Russia and eastwards to China. There also was forced conversions, ( quite often brutal), in numerous other places.
Latin and South America were converted through both those means and also through missionaries. But, it must be stressed that the former methods were the usual ones and were not seen as particularly odious, not even by those being subjected, ( after all, if they had conquered their rivals, they would have forced the conquered to worship their gods). I believe that this is why the Aztecs and Incas were conquered so easily in the first place, ( the subjucated tribes simply sided with the conquistadors who were obviously more powerful).
Be that as it may. One point to make- it is very interesting to see how Catholicism became a religion almost indistinguishable from “native” or “aboriginal” expression. That is, the expression of Catholicism reflected the pre-Christian aboriginal religious view to a great extant.
The Lady of Guadalupe is such an example- She is the Theotokos, very clearly but She is also the expression of the native, aboriginal view of the Great Mother, ( after all, she is portrayed in/on the miraculous cloth as being “brown-skinned”, an India, a native, aboriginal woman). This is a very deep thing to consider.
Protestantism did not adapt, adopt or modify native beliefs. They obliterated them turning converts into brown-skinned Anglo-Europeans, cut off from their ancestors.
That is not true of Catholicism. Nor is this true of Orthodoxy. In their best moments, both were and are capable of adapting/ adopting/ baptizing native, aboriginal beliefs and rituals to express the faith.
Perhaps all this should be more deeply reflected upon.
Converting the people by converting the king may be an acceptable method (such was the case in Georgia, which I mentioned as passing the ethical test). However, conquering a people through aggressive warfare and then submitting them to your religion while plundering their resources is not an acceptable method for Christians. It certainly is an unjust war from St. Augustine’s perspective. Offensive wars are unjust wars and the spoils gotten from them are considered ill-gotten. This is pretty standard Christian ethics.
Our Lady of Guadalupe is also fascinating because all the other pagan symbols are inverted, showing the supremacy of the Virgin. We see similar expressions in India with the cross growing out of the lotus blossom. This is all standard artistic expression of Justin Martyr’s spermatikos logos. It is quite different from the statues of pagan gods that still line the Vatican… Oh sorry, I’m stepping on toes now… ;)
However, conquering a people through aggressive warfare and then submitting them to your religion while plundering their resources is not an acceptable method for Christians.
Does this mean y’all are gonna give back all those lovely Ukrainian churches stolen (with Orthodox complicity) from the Ukrainian Catholics (who were forcibly converted to Orthodoxy, also with Orthodox complicity)? ;)
Oops, stepping on toes now… :D
And on that lovely note, I am going to go get my hair done. Later, gators!
Sure, if Rome gives back all those Churches stolen from ALL OVER Eastern Europe. :)
Unfortunately, history cannot be undone. Which is why, whatever conversion techniques were used in South America, its Catholic now. Most of the people there know nothing else and Rome has the responsibility of pastoral care for them now.
It’ll be nice when we can figure this schism stuff out so I can commune with my neighbours like the canons intend…
Diane, I forgot to mention that some of those parishes have been stolen back and forth so many times the original position is simply forgotten. What shame these schisms bring to the body of Christ (and before anyone goes all anti-ecumenical on me, I’m merely paraphrasing St Clement).
I propose that we all agree that William Palmer (whichever one, doesn’t matter) is not helpful in either ecumenical or polemical situations for either of us and that we, with one voice, denounce such arguments. Then we can end this thread. :)
Michaël, I never asked, to what communion do you belong?
Nathaniel,
“1. What specifically is the Petrine charism
2. How that charism is identified with Rome (but not Antioch or Jerusalem)”
As you haven’t found clear answers in the sources, let me offfer you mine, for what they are worth.
1. The Petrine charism is essentially a dual responsibility for fidelity and unity. In its totality, this responsibility was handed to the Apostles as a whole, but also most especially to Peter himslef in the particular sense of leadership and priviledged articulation.
2. Now, how did this Petrine responsibility pass onto the Pope? After founding the church of Antioch, Peter felt called to take his ministry to the centre of the Roman world, i.e. to Rome itself. There he essentially founded and sustained for the rest of his lifetime a school through oral instruction of the gospel and revelation. Headship of this school he passed on to Linus before his death.
Technically I would argue that after Peter’s death, his particular charismatic responsibility devolved to James and from James to the next most senior Apostle until John’s death circa 100. Once all the Apostles had passed away, Petrine authority devolved consensually (or providentially) to the head of the apostolic “school” with the longest and deepest association to Peter. We already find Clement playing this role in his letter to the Corinthians, denying his recognition and leading to the voluntary submission of those who had usurped local authority, and this even before John’s death.
In exercising this charismatic responsibility (which he shares with his fellow bishops, but which is nevertheless his in a more personal and particular sense), the Pope has two attributes: 1. a general recognition that the “particular” way in which he enjoys the Petrine charism means that the Church exists in essential union with him, and 2. a responsibility on his part to announce to the faithful who, at any given point in time, does or does not share in this union with him, so that the faithful can inform their consciences as to where fidelity to truth and unity can be found in the face of controversy.
The post Apostolic dispensation of where utlimate leadership was to be found in the Church is not the explicit subject of Scripture, and it can only be traced there analogically. We have to rely on Tradition, in which we find a universally recognized priority of witness with the Roman Church, even by those who contested Rome’s judgement in this or that matter.
In matters of controversy, all with any prospect of success appealed to Rome and either exulted explicitly in her support or conspicuously bewailed her “apostasy” when Rome failed to comfort their prejudices. The judgement of no other see in Christendom was given this level of importance, and not until Balsamon was it ever suggested that this was a role the Church could do without. This is about as sound and catholic a Tradition as we can find beyond Scripture and the creeds. It is impossible to read the Fathers without seeing Rome at the centre of everything.
Now, as to what were/are the proper limits of the exercise of this charism, and the extent to which consciences must necessarily conform to its guidance — these are not questions to which one can find consensual answers in a study the Fathers. But the principle of this charism as having been inherited by th ebishop of Rome was never seriously contested until after Chalcedon, and within Orthodoxy not until the end of the 11th century.
Nathaniel,
Let’s just say that I was nominally raised as a Catholic, but that all my meaningful religious education occurred in adulthood. I am not comfortable personalizing these discussions, and I would prefer to see arguments rise and fall on their merits rather than on the self-identification of the participants. :-)
“Palmer of Magdalen” (1811-1879) was the Orthodoxophilke Tractarian who eventually became a Catholic; “Palmer of Worcester” (1803-1885) — both so termed after the Oxford colleges of which they were fellows — was an Anglo-Irish Tractarian admirer of Newman, who broke with Newman upon his conversion to Rome, and later came to repudiate many Anglo-Catholic notions in favor of a more traditionally Anglican high-church Protestantism.
Michaël,
I should have been more clear. I’m looking for a *critical* engagement of these topics. I’m quite familiar with the official and pop claims of the Roman Catholic Church. I’m looking for a scholarly work which evaluates those claims while dealing with some of their historical difficulties.
For instance, it is typically assumed that Peter had a long stint in Rome (something like 53–64). Yet this is generally speaking historically difficult. Paul names various presbyters of Rome in the mid-50’s and Peter isn’t in the list. Most scholars hold that, if Peter came to Rome at all, it was likely after 60AD. A common scholarly Catholic view is that Peter did not much more in Rome than suffer a martyr’s death.
Then of course there are the various lists of Roman bishops which don’t coincide (though these are easily reconciled if one assumes a polyepiscopate in early Rome; though this doesn’t help the Petrine argument). Then there are the early post-apostolic epistle formulas which indicate no inherent primacy. etc…
I’m not saying that Petrine charism is not true, but I’d like to see a critical engagement with its difficulties.
It’s rather obvious to anyone, I think, that there was no Apostle in Rome at the time St. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. I also think it’s known to everyone that Peter wrote his letter from Babylon, confirming the tradition of him being in Antioch at the time, both affirming what St. Paul said about him being an Apostle to the Circumcision (Syriacs are Semites). And no, he did not spend decades in Rome (I know that’s the local tradition of the Roman Church, but that would conflict with the local traditions of many of the other Churches). Apostles, by their nature, that of being “sent”, don’t stay for too long in one place.
Nathaniel,
Dr. Tighe is in a better position to cite “scholarly” Catholic works than I, but I have never found the “critical” thesis based on a narrow reading of Paul’s letter very convincing. How long Peter was in Rome is an open question, but the earliest Fathers in both East and West are consistent in describing him as the founder (or co-founder with Paul, though Paul, unlike Peter, is never described alone as founder) of the Roman Church.
The main problem with the “critical” view is that it is relatively recent and tainted by interested polemics aimed at undermining Rome’s primatial claims. The evidentiary basis for St Mark being the founder of the Alexandrian Church, for example, is incomparably more limited, yet remains essentially unchallenged. That said, one doesn’t have to blindly follow St Jerome in placing Peter in Rome for two decades or more. All the evidence (including Paul’s letter) is consistent with Peter having been in Rome for several years prior to 64.
As for Babylon, perhaps Lucian might wish to read Eusebius or refer to some archeological works that demonstrate that the city no longer existed at the time (at least as more than a village). It is rather obvious to most students of this issue that Peter’s letter used Babylon as a pejorative code for “Rome”.
The main problem with the “critical” view is that it is relatively recent and tainted by interested polemics aimed at undermining Rome’s primatial claims.
Even more than that: they have mental problems with the very existence of bishops. :-)
It is rather obvious to most students of this issue that Peter’s letter used Babylon as a pejorative code for Rome.
And there’s no point in coupling Peter with Revelations. (It reminds me of Protestants coupling Paul’s letter to Timothy with Peter’s epistle, when faced with the fact that the Scriptures reffered there in that passage are actually only those of the Old Testament).
(BTW, as a funny aside: I watched once an hour-long Protestant documentary that … well, it was anti-Catholic, but that’s not the point: the point is that it was stupid to the extreme because it was self-contradictory: the first half was dedicated to showing people that the whore of Babylon in Revelations was Rome … only to say in the next half-hour of the documentary [in which they tried to deny the obvious: namely Peter’s presence in Rome] that the Babylon spoken of in Peter’s epistle is NOT Rome… that it’s the Middle-East! :-) — I just found that hillarious!) :-) — Yes, I’m mean, I know… :D
In any case, I *DO* believe that the Babylon mentioned in Peter’s letter is not a code-name [did Paul use code-names when writing his letter?] for Rome because the Apocalypse and the petrine letter belong to two completely different genres of literature (to begin with). — Nor do I believe that the Damascus spoken of in Acts [‘the road to Damascus’] is a code-name for Masada of the Essenes (where they found the Dead-Sea scrolls). — As You can see, I’m pretty self-consistent and consequent in my beliefs.
Oh brother, Lucian. This argument comes straight out of Jack Chick comics.
The Scriptural, patristic, and historical evidence for Peter’s residence in Rome can safely be described as overwhelming.
I would say more, but I have deadlines.
The main problem with the “critical” view is that it is relatively recent and tainted by interested polemics aimed at undermining Rome’s primatial claims.
This is why I wanted a critical work which, nonetheless, supports these claims. No right thinking Orthodox questions that Rome had (and in any reunion should have) primacy. The question is what that actually means and how that is exercised.
Lets please not debate the merits of Peter @ Rome here, such is better left to the scholarly works.
So does anyone have a critical work they can recommend?
There is no evidence whatsoever that Peter ever went to Mesopotamia, and it is unclear that Babylon was even inhabited any longer around 50 AD; certainly, it had been deserted by the time that Trajan briefly conquered Mesopotamia for Rome ca. 115-17. True, in the 1930s the Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian began to “argue” (if that is the right word) that Peter had written from Babylon and founded the church there and, consequently, that he rather than his Roman colleague was the indignus heres beati Petri (to use the pithy phrase of Leo the Great), but it is amusing to see people other than ignorant “Chickettes,” and especially Orthodox Christians, crediting that silly idea — any cudgel is good enough to thrash a pope, I suppose (but it may be that “Qui rosse du pape en meurt”). Did any single Church Father, Greek, Latin or Syriac, ever propound such a notion? (Hint: this is what in Latin might be termed a “Num question” rather than a “Nonne question.”)
As to Peter visiting Rome, and the dates thereof, I have written previously that I find myself generally convinced by the persuasive account propounded by the Anglican clergyman polymath George Edmundson in his 1913 Bampton Lectures *The Church in Rome in the First Century.* He argues that St. Peter paid three visits to Rome, the first in 42+, the second in ca. 54-56, and the last in the years preceding his martyrdom in ca. 65, a view that has the added advantage of puncturing the groundless Antiochene conceit that their city was “the first See of Peter.”
Edmundson’s book used to be quite rare, and I counted myself fortunate to have found a worn and tattered copy in 1985, which I read for the first time in such congenial (and appropriate) venues as Rome, Ravenna, and Grado (my base for forays into Venice) in August 1985, and have reread at least four times since than. However, it was republished in 2007 by Wipf & Stock in Portland, Oregon, and can be obtained from them directly for $25.00 (the last time I looked it was on sale form $20.00), and often for cheaper prices through Abebooks.com, Amazon.com or Alibris.com.
[Irenaeus’s note: A full scan of Edmundson’s book can be found on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=UHJCAAAAIAAJ
Lets please not debate the merits of Peter @ Rome here, such is better left to the scholarly works.
But that’s just it, Nathaniel. There isn’t any debate about this, that I know of — outside of Jack Check comics and similarly benighted polemics! One need not have recourse to scholarly works. Some questions have been settled more or less definitively. This is one of them. Peter was at Rome. That’s the consensus, and I think it’s as much beyond dispute as any historical question can be.
Re book recommendations: OK, this one’s very old and out of print, but it’s available online as a PDF (at least parts of it are), and I know someone who can send you a hard copy. :) Anyway, the book is by a 19th-century Anglican-turned-Papist, Father Luke Rivington, and it’s called (IIRC) The See of Peter and the Primitive Church.. Rivington was not a purely disinterested scholar (if there even is such a thing); he was definitely an interested party; but nonetheless even his foes conceded he was one heck of a patristics scholar.
There are tons of other books out there, including many of more recent vintage…I’m sure Dr. Tighe can recommend the best ones.
Rivington is certainly worth reading; there was also a book by an Anglican clergyman (whose name I forget) in the 1920s on the subject that has much interesting material, although the book is huge and rambling. FLASH: *The Eastern Churches and the Papacy* (1928) by S. Herbert Scott.
Btw, it just occurred to me that the “Sybilline oracles” (a kind of appropriation of the “Sybil” for anti-Roman purposes by Jewish and [perhaps] Christian authors) regularly refer to Rome as “Babylon;” and so it does not really make much sense to speak of “different genres” of literature in the face of what seems to have been something of a convention on the part of those, perhaps overlapping, circles that produced such literature.
Also, the very scholarly *The Church and the Papacy* (1944) by Trevor Gervase Jalland, another scholarly Anglican clergyman, seems largely to support the Petrine foundation of the “papal claims,” even if he is somewhat coy when (in the final two sections of his book’s last chapter) he gives his judgment on those “claims” themselves.
On the whole, I think I would recommend beginning with Edmundson, and then Jalland; the Jalland book, however, is both rare and costly.
This discussion is veering off course. The Papacy has been discussed exhaustively on this blog and its predecessor, Cathedra Unitatis. I’m all for future discussions, but based on texts which can focus the conversation.