By Father Lev Gillet
From Chrysostom, Vol. VI, No. 5 (Spring 1983), pp. 151-159.
(Continued from Part I, Part II & Part III)
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V. There are three principal causes which provide an explanation for the opposition with which the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has been met in the Orthodox Church.
First and foremost, there is the mistrust felt a priori by many Orthodox about any doctrine defined by Rome since the separation of East and West. That, of course, is primarily a psychological reason.
There is also the fear of formulating a doctrine which might not seem to have sufficient foundation in Holy Scripture and the patristic tradition. We have left the patristic age outside the bounds of our discussion, limiting ourselves to the Orthodox theology of Byzantium: but it seems that (from St Andrew of Crete to St Theodore the Studite) much evidence can be produced from Greek sources in favour of the Immaculate Conception.
Finally there is the fear of restricting the redemptive work of Christ. Once you have exempted Mary from original sin, have you not exempted her from the effects of her Son’s redemption? Is it not possible for a single exception to destroy the whole economy of salvation? The Orthodox theologians who think on these lines have not given careful enough consideration, or indeed any at all, to the fact that according to Pius IX’s definition, Mary was only exempt from original sin in view of the merits of Christ: “intuitu meritorum Christi Jesu Salvatoris humani generis“. Therefore, Christ’s redemptive action was operative in Mary’s case although in a quite different way from that of the rest of mankind.
We will add this, too. Orthodox theology has always insisted on the beauty of human nature in its integrity before the fall. Now it is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which alone can justify this ‘humanism’. It is only in Mary conceived without sin, that human nature has reached its fulfilment and actualized all its possibilities. Mary is the one and only success of the human race. It is through her and in her that humanity has escaped total failure and has offered to the divine a point of entry into the human. Mary, said Metropolitan George of Nicomedia (19th century) “was the magnificent firstfruit offered by human nature to the Creator.” (16) “She is”, said Nicholas Cabasilas (14th century), “truly the first man, the first and only being to have manifested in herself the fullness of human nature.” (17)
VI. Let us draw our conclusions:
- The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not a defined dogma in the Orthodox Church.
- One can say that since the first part of the nineteenth century the majority of Orthodox believers and theologians have taken their stand against this doctrine.
- Nevertheless. it is impossible to say that from the Orthodox point of view the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception constitutes a heresy; for canonically it has never been defined as such by an oecumenical council and in fact it has never met with the disapproval of a universal and unchanging consensus of opinion.
- There does exist a continuous line of eminent Orthodox authorities who have taught the Immaculate Conception.
- Therefore the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has every right to its existence in the Orthodox Church as an opinion of a school or as a personal theologoumenon based on a tradition worthy of respect.
- It follows therefore that the Roman definition of 1854 does not constitute an obstacle to the reunion of the Eastern and Western Churches.
- It is my own view that not only does the Immaculate Conception not contradict any Orthodox dogma but that it is a necessary and logical development of the whole of Orthodox belief. (18)
Regina sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis.
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Footnotes:
16. Hom. III in Praesentat., Migne P.G. t. C, col. 1444.
17. Hom. in Nativ. B. Mariae, Greek Cod. 1213 of the Bibliotheque Nationale of Paris, fol. 3, r.
18. On the whole subject see M. Jugie, “De immaculata Deiparae conceptione a byzantinis scriptoribus post schisma consummatum edocta”, in Acta II conventus Velehradensis, Prague 1910; and article Immaculee Conception, in Dictionnaire de theologie catholique, Paris 1922, t. VII, col. 894-975. This last article by Jugie gives a complete bibliography of the subject. Much will also be found in P. de Meester, “Le dogme de l’immaculee conception et la doctrine de l’Eglise grecque”: 5 articles published in the Revue de l’Orient chretien, Paris, 1904-1905.
Many thanks to Professor William Tighe for the text of this rare article.
Thank you for the article.
It seems to me that the only reason for opposition to the theologoumenon is that has been declared, by fiat as it were, as dogma by Rome.
I think that what needs to be looked at are the historical reasons for such a declaration. It seems to me that the revolutions of 1848 and the rise of atheism and “communist” materialism may have given rise to anxiety over the Christian faith in Western Europe and such a declaration was made to buttress such faith.
I could and am probably wrong on this.
I am reasonably sure Orthodox would have problems with propositions 6 and 7.
6 occludes the fact that Rome is now bound to require belief in the IC (even if in a form more consonent with Eastern theology) as a condition for corporate reunion. It may be a theologoumenon for Orthodoxy but it isn’t for Catholicism.
As for 7, the mere word “development” is bound to be a red flag for the Orthodox. Also while I am sympathetic to the argument (which is, let us note, couched merely as a personal opinion), I don’t see that the “necessity” of the belief from the Orthodox perspective has been anywhere established in the article.
I concur with the author’s opinion that the IC is not a doctrinally proscribed opinion. However I strenuously disagree with his point 6…
It follows therefore that the Roman definition of 1854 does not constitute an obstacle to the reunion of the Eastern and Western Churches.
The very fact that it has been dogmatically promulgated unilaterally by the Pope of Rome makes it an obstacle. This dogma did not come from an OEcumenical Council and has not been received by the Church. Reunification would require us to accept the IC and implicitly papal infallibility. While I am frankly undecided on the subject of the IC, I have no such reservations regarding the decrees of Vatican I.
This is of course (as I have noted ad nauseum) the deal breaker.
ICXC
John
John,
Fr Lev was not being very precise in #6.
My reading is that he doesn’t think there’s any doctrinal obstacle in the text of the definition. I can’t imagine Fr Lev denying that there is a serious ecclesiological obstacle here, exactly as you described.
And so, as with so many Orthodox-Catholic problems, the issue comes back to ecclesiology …
While I am frankly undecided on the subject of the IC, I have no such reservations regarding the decrees of Vatican I.
Well, if the Immaculata has brought you far enough so that you can at least be open to the IC, perhaps she will bring you the rest of the way as well. ;)
Diane, hoping this does not sound too personal and therefore in violation of our esteemed Eirenikon Editor’s rules
Diane,
I have never rejected the IC, or embraced it per se. I don’t see the doctrine as central to the faith. If it was it would be in the Creed. For most Orthodox it is an interesting point of discussion or debate among theologians. In short, it is speculation. As our host notes, the really serious issues are grace and ecclesiology.
ICXC
John
evagrius: From what I understand, there was a huge groundswell of support for the formal dogmatic definition of the IC. Both bishops and laity worldwide were all for it. If I’m not mistaken (more knowledgeable folks are free to correct me), the pope actually consulted the world’s Catholic bishops before issuing the definition. He found that they supported it overwhelmingly.
Prehaps the anxiety you cite was one factor influencing this vast popular support for the IC. But I would imagine that it was but one factor among many. The Catholic laity’s tender piety toward Our Lady had been developing and deepening for centuries. And perhaps, like Catholics at the time of the Council of Ephesus, 19th-century Catholics sensed that recognition of Our Lady’s unique dignity does indeed serve as a safeguard for a healthy oxrthodox Christology.
Ad Orientem: Of course the IC does not occupy the central place of the great Trinitarian and Christological dogmas. That goes without saying. But, as Chesterton noted, you cannot separate the Son from the Mother. As in so much Christian art–from Byzantine icons to Raphael’s Madonnas–the two halos are blended. You cannot separate them. The IC is, in a profound sense, as much a Christological dogma as the definition of Mary as Theotokos was. Jesus is the Shekinah Glory, but Mary is the Ark, and that has certain implications.
Diane
A question: what does Fr. Gillet mean by “original sin”? Does one find an explicit affirmation of what Catholics mean by original sin in certain Orthodox authorities? Or would Fr. Gillet say that the Catholic understanding of original sin can be implicitly found in those sources? I ask because I have read denials by Orthodox apologists that the Orthodox hold the same doctrine of original sin, rather they hold a doctrine of ancient sin and the two cannot be harmonized, etc.
I found Fr. Lev’s argument a bit light in content. While both Orthodox and Catholics wold agree to the sinlessness of the the Holy Virgin, the real gulf lies in our different understandings of Original Sin vs. Ancestral Curse, and the need to formalize a dogmatic pronouncement on such an issue that was so controversial in the Western Church. Some things are better left to the inner tradition of the Church, at least from an Orthodox point of view. I am sure that our Catholic readers will disagree, but then that is why intercommunion is a long way off, unfortunately.
I agree with Fr. Gregory, and would therefore reject #3-7. Maybe someone can explain to me why some Orthodox obsess about defined doctrines.
I agree with T. Chan and Hieromonk Gregory that Fr Gillet’s failure to clearly define original sin is a weakness of his paper; but regardless of this weakness, his paper raises important points nonetheless. He points us to longstanding Byzantine tradition, also identified by Fr Casimir Kucharek, that witnesses, in some way that has yet to be convincingly explained, to what we might call the original holiness and purity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a tradition that was apparently abandoned in the East subsequent to the papal definition. Fr Gillet thus invites Eastern theologians to re-examine their own tradition and to see if something has been lost or suppressed in the bitter polemics of the past 150 years.
In an earlier thread, Fr Paul raised the possibility of distinguishing the essential content of the dogma from its historically determined theological expression. This is an important task for Catholic theologians, especially with regards to the Immaculate Conception. The IC is not a piece of scholastic speculation imposed on the Latin Church, though it is most certainly expressed within the terminology of traditional scholastic theology. It is rooted in a deep apprehension of the honor and devotion due to the Theotokos in union with her son, the Divine Son, and a pious refusal to attribute to her, at any stage of her existence, sinful alienation from God. If Gillet and Kucharek are right, then many Byzantine theologians over a long period of many hundred years would have agreed with the pious impulse that underlies the IC dogma, even while perhaps dissenting from the Augustinian construal of original sin in which the dogma appears to have been expressed. It is here, I suggest, that dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox on the IC dogma must begin. We must go deep into the tradition and prayer of the Church to find the truth that is common, I am convinced, to both East and West.
Question for Pontificator, Dr. Mike, et. al. in communion with Rome:
Has the Magisterium pronounced definitively on whether or not the Blessed Virgin experienced concupiscence?
Fr Greg, that is a good question. I believe, though I am open to correction, that the common Catholic teaching is that the Blessed Virgin was free from concupiscence. See this catechesis by JPII on the Immaculate Conception. But I am not aware of any definitive magisterial definitions on the question, nor am I acquainted with the theological discussion on this question.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
411 …Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.
418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).
It seems that if you combine 411 and 418 then, according to the Catechism, Mary never experienced concupiscence.
Some things are better left to the inner tradition of the Church, at least from an Orthodox point of view.
Some things, perhaps, but not, apparently, the IC. ;-) Four years after the pope formally defined the IC, Heaven went rather out of its way to confirm the truth of the dogma.
During the early spring of 1858, at a humble grotto in Lourdes, France, the Theotokos appeared repeatedly to an illiterate 14-year-old peasant girl, Bernadette Soubirous. During one of the apparitions, Our Lady instructed Bernadette to dig for a spring, which later proved to be miraculous. (More on this later.) Then, on the Feast of the Annunciation of that same year, Our Lady revealed her name to Bernadette “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
Bernadette herself had no idea what those words meant. She’d missed most of her schooling because of her asthma, and she was a slow learner in any case.
But Heaven, as I say, went out of its way to corroborate Our Lady’s astonishing statement–by means of the miraculous spring. In the 150 years since the Lourdes apparitions, thousands of medical miracles have occurred via the spring; and, among those, nearly 70 have been officially pronounced miraculous by the Catholic Church. (This does not mean there have been only some 70 miracles. Rather, it means that the Church is prudent to a fault in officially approving miraculous claims; it vets such claims to death, endorsing their credibility only when the claims’ veracity has been proved beyond all reasonable doubt.)
One of the miraculous cures approved by the Church involved a young Italian soldier with a degenerative disease. His entire hip was missing. After bathing in the Lourdes waters, he grew a new hip. Before-and-after biopsies and eyewitness testimonies galore confirmed the miracle. It’s a rather difficult one to gainsay, although I’m sure anti-Catholic polemicists can find a way. ;)
Another miracle involved a woman with a horrible skin disease. Her entire skin was a mass of oozing sores and puss. After bathing in the Lourdes waters, she grew a new, fresh skin, free of sores and puss. Emile Zola reportedly witnssed this miracle. When asked if it had changed his mind (he was an atheist), he responded to the effect, “Even if I should see everyone at Lourdes instantly cured, I still would not believe.” As Karl Keating observed when he related this anecodote, Zola’s response was sheer rigid dogmatism. Yet I have known anti-Catholic Christians to echo it!
My point? Our Lord said, “By their fruits shall you know them.” The fruits of Lourdes have been extraordinary — not only physical healings but countless conversions and spiritual healings. Not to mention countless vocations; it is almost axiomatic among pious young Catholic men that an urge to visit Lourdes may be a sign of a priestly vocation.
These fruits, so well attested and so amply documented, suggest that Lourdes is a genuine Heaven-sent phenomenon. And as its key message is that Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception, I would politely suggest that we pay appropriate heed. Of course no private revelation (no matter how well attested or firmly Church-approved) is binding on the consciences of the faithful. Nonetheless, one would be unwise, I think, to ignore the significance of such a spectacular phenomenon as Lourdes—especially as it is so well attested. And, what’s more, its timing could not be better calculated to show Heaven’s approval of the 1854 IC definition.
Diane
Thanks for posting these articles, Eirenikon. I think that an Orthodox Christian could only accept the Immaculate Conception as a theologoumena (much like asking whether animals will be in heaven). To give any further credence to the IC teaching would run into the problem that no Orthodox bishop teaches the IC at the present time. This is a problem for Eastern Orthodox because if the IC is a doctrine and no bishop teaches it, the Church (which at least one bishop is required for in Orthodoxy) has lost part of the Faith. The key question seems to be whether Church history reveals the IC as a doctrine or just a theological opinion. I’d like to see a discussion about this topic, actually.
I don’t think the key question is whether or not the IC is doctrine or theological opinion.
I think the key question is how it was promulgated.
This is a problem for Eastern Orthodox because if the IC is a doctrine and no bishop teaches it, the Church (which at least one bishop is required for in Orthodoxy) has lost part of the Faith.
It has never crossed my mind to put it like that or even to think of it like that….but what if, in fact, the Orthodox have lost (or, rather, failed to retain) a very beautiful part of the Faith?
The IC is such a beautiful doctrine. And, as Father Gillet has shown (convincingly, I think), it is the logical outgrowth of Eastern Orthodox tradition WRT the Theotokos. I am asking this sincerely, as someone who is truly at a loss to understand: Do y’all not feel the loss of something precious and beautiful when / if you reject the IC? Does it not seem as if a precious piece of the puzzle is missing? If you revere her as All-Holy, how can you stand to think of a moment in her grace-filled life when she wasn’t holy, pure, and faithful to God? Does it not strike y’all as bordering on blasphemous to think of the Ark of the New Covenant, the God-Bearer, as a sinner?
I think the key question is how it was promulgated.
evagrius, do you find fault with how it was promulgated? I’m not sure I understand. (And, if I am completely misconstruing you here, please forgive me…and kindly disregard the rest of this comment; LOL!)
IMHO, the pope was certainly within his rights to promulgate the IC–and, of course, he did so only in response to a huge popular groundswell (the sensus fidelium and all). I do not think he can fairly be faulted for the fact that he did not issue his proclamation in consultation with the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs. After all, said patriarchs were not in union with him — and some were actively hostile toward him and his Church. You can’t expect people to play ball when they think you’re the Anti-Christ. ;-) But that does not mean the pope should have been paralyzed, unable to act, simply because the Orthodox (and Protestants) weren’t willing to play along.
We have all been hurt by the Schism, but it has not vitiated the Catholic Church’s authority to act in certain ways or the pope’s ability to exercise the Petrine primacy. It would have been nice if the rest of Christendom had been on board with the IC, but I don’t think the pope should have waited for such an extraordinary love-feast (which may well be deferred until the Eschaton) before promulgating the IC. In 1854 the faithful looked to Rome for the dogmatic definition. What’s more, the Holy Spirit Himself evidently wanted the dogma defined, given that He rather spectacularly confirmed it four years later through the Lourdes apparitions. So, where’s the problem? Do we not trust the Church founded by Our Lord? Do we not trust that the Church is divinely guided in matters like this? Do we not trust Our Lord, who promised that the Spirit would lead His Church into “all truth”?
I think ecumenical sensitivity is a fine thing, but it can go only so far. It cannot and should not cripple or paralyze the Catholic Church. In a divided Christendom, the Church founded by Jesus still can and must act; the Barque of Peter can and must continue to steer the way, even if the smaller boats in her vicinity refuse to follow.
My two cents’ worth, fwiw (and please, I beg of y’all–no charges of “ultramontanism,” please; I dread that loaded term, which [like “triumphalism”] is so often bandied about indiscriminately in Catholic-Orthodox discussions)….
Diane, up waaaay too late
“It has never crossed my mind to put it like that or even to think of it like that….but what if, in fact, the Orthodox have lost (or, rather, failed to retain) a very beautiful part of the Faith?”
If the Orthodox Church has lost part of the Faith one must become Catholic because Orthodoxy would no later be the true Faith.
I noticed on another blog that you condemned my comparison of the IC with the opinion of whether dogs are in heaven. I admit that this comparison was not the best and I regretted this as soon as I posted the comment. I ask your apologies and anyone else’s I may have offended by this not well thought out comparison. It truly clouded the point I was trying to make.
That said, my point was that I think there can be a productive discussion about whether the IC is an example of doctrine made dogma or has it traditionally been a well-founded theological opinion, which one may reject without any consequences. A more apropos comparison would be to the theological opinion of the pre-lapsarian need for redemption. This theological opinion underwent a debate around much the same time as the IC and serves as a better comparison.
To start the discussion, I’ll say that it is interesting that the IC was debated for many centuries, with plenty deniers in the West, and yet no condemnations or even silencing were imposed on those who denied the IC until more recent centuries. This seems to support the theory that originally the IC was a theological opinion, which could be accepted or rejected without spiritual consequences. And since theological opinions cannot become doctrines, the Orthodox Church would be right to refuse doctrinal (not to say dogmatic) status to the IC.
Adam,
I would take issue with you on two points:
1. “If the Orthodox Church has lost part of the Faith one must become Catholic because Orthodoxy would no later be the true Faith.”
I don’t think Diane means “lost” in quite that sense. Some Orthodox do believe in the IC (or at least in a version close enough for Catholics). So the Orthodox Church may not teach it, but it hasn’t “lost” it. That would require a formal doctrinal denial.
And even if Orthodoxy *had* lost it, your conclusion still might not hold in that the Catholic Church might have “lost” something else since the schism, and so be on a level with a (hypothetically) deficient Orthodoxy.
2. “theological opinions cannot become doctrines”
This is not necessarily true, particularly with respect to formulations. Doctrines are theological opinions that the Church has defined and confirmed as true.
Hypothetically, if all other obstacles to reunion had been overcome, I think Rome would be content with an Orthodox teaching that Mary was never in a state of moral separation from God at any time in her existence. That’s the essence of the doctrine.
Evagrius wrote:
I think that what needs to be looked at are the historical reasons for such a declaration.
As I understand it, the Pope’s motivation for defining the doctrine was to make peace between the Dominicans and the Franciscans, who had been at each other’s throats over the doctrine for centuries. Following Thomas Aquinas (as usual), the Dominicans denied the IC – or at least the necessity of the IC. St. Thomas reasoned that if it were necessary for Mary to have been free of original sin to bear Christ, then St. Anne would have had to be free of original sin to bear Mary, and so on, all the way back to Eve. I think it’s pretty obvious why that would be a problem. (Does St. Gregory Palamas’s suggestion that Mary’s ancestors were purified gradually from generation to generation answer Aquinas here?)
The Franciscans, meanwhile, were the main force for teaching and popularizing belief in the IC. Since they outnumbered the Dominicans significantly for centuries and they were very committed to the IC, their view became the more prevalent among Catholics.
As for me, I agree with those who have said the IC per se is less important than the understanding of original sin that it embodies. Most Orthodox will not accept the IC if it means we have to accept the Augustinian teaching on original sin.
Just posted the last part of my essay. It is related to the topic posted here.
http://molonlabe70.blogspot.com/2008/08/response-to-drcarson-thoughts-on.html
Hi, Roland.
I must confess that this is the first time in my life that I have ever heard anyone claim that the pope dogmatically defined the IC in order to make peace between the Dominicans and Francciscans.
Would Dr. Tighe (inter alia) be so kind as to comment on this claim?
Thank you!
Diane
“Would Dr. Tighe (inter alia) be so kind as to comment on this claim?”
I’ve never heard it, either, until now — and I doubt it very much. By the 19th Century (and I think by the end of the 17th) the Dominicans had effectively rejected St. Thomas Aquinas’ rejection of the IC — and so by 1854 it was no longer a live issue among theologians within the Catholic Church.
Dr. Tighe, that’s exactly what I figured, but I am happy to see it confirmed by someone so much more knowledgeable than I. Thank you!
I don’t think that the IC is dependent on the Augustian understanding of original sin.
Its formulation may have been expressed using that understanding but it does not have to be.
From post #14, ( John Di);From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
411 …Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.
418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).
It seems that if you combine 411 and 418 then, according to the Catechism, Mary never experienced concupiscence.
I don’t see any “Augustinian” notion here but I may be wrong.
evagrius, I think you are quite correct. Father Kimel and others have made precisely the same point.
Evagrius,
The Orthodox understanding of the ancestral curse is that because of Adam all have sinned, and fallen short. What we inherited is the state of separation from God, the curse of death, and the inclination to sin and a weakened image and likeness that fell into personal the first generation of Adam.
With the Theotokos Panagia she was pure in her imgae and likeness, but had the consequence of death; hence the Feast of her Holy Assumption. Whether or not she had a tendenccy to sin is really not evident for us Orthodox. What we know is that after Christ she is the holiest of all women just as no greater than John the Baptist was born of woman, according to the clear words of Christ. Again, we can all speculate and hold to our dear convictions and rightfully so, but all of us must await what happens in the future Roman Catholic/Orthodox consultations. I don’t believe the gulf on this issue is insurmontable, but let us wait and pray.
With the Theotokos Panagia she was pure in her imgae and likeness, but had the consequence of death; hence the Feast of her Holy Assumption.
Forgive me, Hieromonk Gregory, but hasn’t that particular point been addressed a gazillion times already? Or am I missing something?
It seems to me that any contingent creature of flesh and blood is subject to death but death need not imply the separation of soul and body. It is the latter which Adam and Eve suffered as a result of original sin.
Question for both sides:
Did the Blessed Virgin Theotokos HAVE to die, or, like that of her Divine Son, was her death voluntary?
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians…
627 Christ’s death was a real death in that it put an end to his earthly human existence. But because of the union which the person of the Son retained with his body, his was not a mortal corpse like others, for “it was not possible for death to hold him” and therefore “divine power preserved Christ’s body from corruption.” Both of these statements can be said of Christ: “He was cut off out of the land of the living”, and “My flesh will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let your Holy One see corruption.”…
1019 Jesus, the Son of God, freely suffered death for us in complete and free submission to the will of God, his Father. By his death he has conquered death, and so opened the possibility of salvation to all men.
It seems the catechism leaves open the possibility that the Blessed Virgin did not die at all because her Son freely suffered a real death and then was resurrected.
I decided to do a bit more research. Here is a relevant excerpt from the the Catholic Encyclopedia‘s article on the Immaculate Conception:
The Friars Minor confirmed in 1621 the election of the Immaculate Mother as patron of the order, and bound themselves by oath to teach the mystery [of the IC] in public and in private. The Dominicans, however, were under special obligation to follow the doctrines of St. Thomas, and the common conclusion was that St. Thomas was opposed to the Immaculate Conception. Therefore the Dominicans asserted that the doctrine was an error against faith (John of Montesono, 1373); although they adopted the feast, they termed it persistently “Sanctificatio B.M.V.” not “Conceptio”, until in 1622 Gregory XV abolished the term “sanctificatio”. Paul V (1617) decreed that no one should dare to teach publicly that Mary was conceived in original sin, and Gregory XV (1622) imposed absolute silence (in scriptis et sermonibus etiam privatis) upon the adversaries of the doctrine until the Holy See should define the question. To put an end to all further cavilling, Alexander VII promulgated on 8 December 1661, the famous constitution “Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum”, defining the true sense of the word conceptio, and forbidding all further discussion against the common and pious sentiment of the Church. He declared that the immunity of Mary from original sin in the first moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into the body was the object of the feast (Densinger, 1100).
There you have it: The Dominicans ceased their active opposition to the IC only when ordered to do so by the Pope, and the IC became the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the 17th century. It would appear that the 1854 pronouncement simply elevated the already-defined belief to a credal level of significance.
33. Yes, the Catholic Church has not settled the question of whether the Blessed Virgin Mary died before she was assumed.
31. It seems to me that any contingent creature of flesh and blood is subject to death but death need not imply the separation of soul and body.
How would you define death then?
“I don’t think Diane means “lost” in quite that sense. Some Orthodox do believe in the IC (or at least in a version close enough for Catholics). So the Orthodox Church may not teach it, but it hasn’t ‘lost’ it. That would require a formal doctrinal denial.”
I might be too picky, but I think that as a consequent of the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth, that the Church must not only not formally deny a teaching, but be able to present people with a true teaching on any particular doctrine (even if this is reduced to one bishop and some faithful). I have my doubts that any Orthodox bishop teaches the essential content of the IC at the present time and this would present a problem for the integrity of Orthodoxy as the Church of Christ, and thus as the truth of God in the world, if the IC is a teaching of the Faith as opposed to only a theological opinion.
“And even if Orthodoxy *had* lost it, your conclusion still might not hold in that the Catholic Church might have ‘lost’ something else since the schism, and so be on a level with a (hypothetically) deficient Orthodoxy.”
This is possible. However, I wouldn’t concede that both Churches could be possibly deficient, as this would hinder the presence of apostolic Christianity in the world.
“This is not necessarily true, particularly with respect to formulations. Doctrines are theological opinions that the Church has defined and confirmed as true.”
Once again, I may be stricter than I should in this area, but I’ve always thought that a doctrine must be such from the beginning of the Church. In a sense, all non-dogmatic beliefs are types of theologumena. However, all theologumena aren’t created equal. I think that there exist some theological opinions, which have always been seen in a doctrinal light, while other opinions are seen as just that and cannot be made the subject of dogmas. We see this applied in the beliefs about Christ, which before Nicea were non-dogmatic theologumena (albeit, of a more privileged nature). These beliefs were defended and those who denied them were condemned and opposed in the tumultuous times before Nicea. The same could never been said of opinions like the pre-lapsarian need of redemption and similar speculations. From my reading of history, the IC has more a pedigree of these latter opinions, which are never recognized by the Church as being of the Faith and are allowed great liberty in acceptance or denial.
“Hypothetically, if all other obstacles to reunion had been overcome, I think Rome would be content with an Orthodox teaching that Mary was never in a state of moral separation from God at any time in her existence. That’s the essence of the doctrine.”
I think Rome would be content with such an unified statement from Orthodoxy. I’m still wondering whether Orthodoxy generally holds to this essential content of the IC. I’d be very pleased to find out that she does.
It seems to me that any contingent creature of flesh and blood is subject to death but death need not imply the separation of soul and body.
How would you define death then?
Death is death-the ceasing of existing as flesh and blood but not the ceasing of existing as a contingent creature. How one exists as a contingent creature after death is a mystery. However it is real.
That’s obvious if one takes the Resurrection seriously.
Hieromonk Gregory,
Thanks for your informative comment. My only question is: Does Orthodoxy teach that the Most Holy Theotokos was never in a state of separation from God?
Adam: The IC is a teaching of the Faith, as Fr. Gillet argues. As he says, it is the logical outgrowth of patristic teaching (both Eastern and Western) re the Theotokops as New Eve and Ark of the Covenant.
I for one hope you will ponder the implications of this and reach the logical conclusion thereof.
Our Lord wants us to venerate His Mother as the Immaculate Conception. He could not make this clearer if He had written it in giant letters across the sky. Or given us a miraculous spring, for that matter,
It seems the catechism leaves open the possibility that the Blessed Virgin did not die at all because her Son freely suffered a real death and then was resurrected.
The catechism may leave the question open, but the historic teaching of the Catholic Church apparently does not. Consider the following:
In Ott’s list of Catholic dogmas, one finds the following: “Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)”
As an aside, concerning her experience of concupiscence, the following is stated: “From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.) “
I will leave it to Pontificator, Dr. Mike, Dr. Tighe, et. al. to explain the levels of certainty indicated by the phrases in parentheses after each proposition given above; I understand that the highest, the dogmatic statements per se, are “de fidei” and these are not, so I am not quite certain what credence to give these statements.
However, if one consults the 1911 Catholic Enyclopedia article on the Assumption of Mary, her death is discussed, albeit briefly, as a matter of fact. In the Apostolic Constitution of Pius XII, “Munificentissimus Deus”, which defined the Assumption as dogma, the late Pope quotes various sources, patristic, liturgical, and theological, in order to provide “proofs” that the Assumption is de fidei. In several of these, the death of the Virgin is spoken of, and include references to the celebration of the feast in the Byzantine Rite, and apparently early in the Latin Rite, as the Dormition, as well as quotes which speak of her death, and nowhere does Pius deny that she indeed reposed, but rather seems to presuppose she did. Here are a couple (with paragraph numbers):
“17. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
“21. Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. “It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.”
So it looks like authoritative Catholic teaching agrees with that of the Orthodox in affirming both the dormition and assumption of the Blessed Virgin Theotokos.
So, again, is it the case that she was under the necessity of death, as we are, or was it the case that, like her Son, she was capable of dying, but was not compelled to do, reposing voluntarily?
“Adam: The IC is a teaching of the Faith, as Fr. Gillet argues. As he says, it is the logical outgrowth of patristic teaching (both Eastern and Western) re the Theotokos as New Eve and Ark of the Covenant.”
I think you’re rather stretching it here, Diane. Something can be a logical outgrowth from patristic teaching, and thus be true, and yet not be a doctrine of the Faith. There are lots of theological opinions, which can be well defended and substantially proven from the sources of Holy Tradition. However, these opinions remain just that and don’t have the historical pedigree required for a teaching/doctrine of the Faith. The IC seems to fit into these ancient and well defended, albeit non-doctrinal, opinions. If not, how do you explain the Western Church’s refusal to condemn or even silence those who denied and even attacked the IC during the Middle Ages? The Church never allows her doctrines to be treated in this fashion, regardless of the motivation of their denial or attack. To argue that the IC became a doctrine is to argue that the Church added to the Deposit of Faith and calls into question the ability of the Church to think with the mind of Christ, as the Church would have let people deny the truth with immunity for centuries.
“Our Lord wants us to venerate His Mother as the Immaculate Conception. He could not make this clearer if He had written it in giant letters across the sky. Or given us a miraculous spring, for that matter”
He very well may want us to do so. However, there are lots of theological opinions, which are true and should be spread. However, this doesn’t make them doctrines, just correct and helpful opinions. To say that any correct opinion is a doctrine is not true, as it would make the existence of correct opinions impossible, which is obviously an incorrect assertion.
40. FrGregACCA — Regarding sententia communis–the intro has an explanation of sententia communis and the other theologicla grades of certainty.
I’ll leave it to the theologians to explain whether the use of a proof-text confirms the truthfulness of everything in that proof-text, or only that part which directly applies to what is being taught or established.
37. evagrius: I accept that death is the separation of the soul as the body, since I think the Aristotelian teaching that the soul is the substantial form of the body is correct.
Well, Adam, my Church, which (like yours) claims that it is the Church founded by Christ, obviously claims that the IC is a doctrine of the Faith. So, there you are. I suppose it comes down, like everything else, to ecclesiology. Which, in turn, comes down to the whole question of authority.
I confess, though, that I do not understand this resistance to the beautiful doctrine of the IC. Why shouldn’t it be a doctrine of the Faith? Is it not conceivable to you that Heaven might want it to be? (Again: The spectacular miracles surrounding Lourdes would seem to suggest that Heaven has given its “seal of approval” to the IC dogma.)
Someone up above suggested that, as a mere opinion, the IC is on a par with “Do puppy-doggies go to Heaven?” Personally, I find this sort of reasoning profoundly disrespectful to the Theotokos–and, by extension, to her Son. I cannot fathom how people who profess to venerate Our Lady as the All-Holy One would balk at accepting the IC as doctrine. On a gut level, I guess, I don’t get it. I really don’t.
I’ll stick with Fr. Gillet’s reasoning, thank you. And with the Tradition and Teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.
Adam,
I wrote:
“And even if Orthodoxy *had* lost it, your conclusion still might not hold in that the Catholic Church might have ‘lost’ something else since the schism, and so be on a level with a (hypothetically) deficient Orthodoxy.”
You responded with:
“This is possible. However, I wouldn’t concede that both Churches could be possibly deficient, as this would hinder the presence of apostolic Christianity in the world.”
I guess I should spell out in more detail the implications of my observation regarding the hypothetical case in which each Church might have “lost” different parts fo the faith. If the faith preserved by each complements any gaps in the other, then “apostolic Christianity” has been preserved. This would, of course, require a wider understanding of the Church to necessarily include both “lungs”. I am not suggesting that this is the case, merely pointing out that there are theological approaches to ecclesiology that can accomodate the proposition that you don’t necessarily need to change Churches if you find your own deficient in not teaching some doctrine.
Further to your remark regarding the need for a living bishop to teach a particular article of faith. I think this would contradict the understanding of the Church as a communion of all the faithful, both living and dead. The teaching of a bishop (and most particularly a saint) is still, all things being equal, worthy of credence on a prima facie basis if it has not been authoritatively rejected by his fellow bishops. The teaching would not, of course, could not be binding until it had achieved some level of consensual support however.
So there may well be a treasury of currently contested theological opinions or writings to draw upon that the Church, after mature reflection, will determine *are* part of the authentic deposit of the faith. I point you to how the biblical canon was settled upon as an example.
In an earlier thread, Fr Paul raised the possibility of distinguishing the essential content of the dogma from its historically determined theological expression. This is an important task for Catholic theologians, especially with regards to the Immaculate Conception. The IC is not a piece of scholastic speculation imposed on the Latin Church, though it is most certainly expressed within the terminology of traditional scholastic theology. It is rooted in a deep apprehension of the honor and devotion due to the Theotokos in union with her son, the Divine Son, and a pious refusal to attribute to her, at any stage of her existence, sinful alienation from God. If Gillet and Kucharek are right, then many Byzantine theologians over a long period of many hundred years would have agreed with the pious impulse that underlies the IC dogma, even while perhaps dissenting from the Augustinian construal of original sin in which the dogma appears to have been expressed. It is here, I suggest, that dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox on the IC dogma must begin. We must go deep into the tradition and prayer of the Church to find the truth that is common, I am convinced, to both East and West.
This is the most intelligent thing that I have read yet on this blog.
LOL, Nemo, I don’t know if I’d go quite that far–there have been many fine comments on this blog (mine excluded, of course)–but I agree that it’s a brilliant and cogent comment.
“Well, Adam, my Church, which (like yours) claims that it is the Church founded by Christ, obviously claims that the IC is a doctrine of the Faith. So, there you are. I suppose it comes down, like everything else, to ecclesiology. Which, in turn, comes down to the whole question of authority.”
Quite true.
“I confess, though, that I do not understand this resistance to the beautiful doctrine of the IC. Why shouldn’t it be a doctrine of the Faith? Is it not conceivable to you that Heaven might want it to be? (Again: The spectacular miracles surrounding Lourdes would seem to suggest that Heaven has given its “seal of approval” to the IC dogma.)”
For the IC to be a doctrine it would have had to evolve from a pious opinion to a doctrine and I don’t believe that this is possible. We may grow in understanding and defense of a doctrine, but we don’t realize one day that something is part of the Faith when previously we saw it as an optional opinion. To argue otherwise puts the Church in the compromising position of only gradually realizing the essential content of the Faith she teaches and demands adherence to. This is rather nonsensical, IMO. And to argue that an evolution from theological opinion to doctrine is expected when such an opinion becomes popular seems full of a spirit of subjectivism regarding the content of the saving Faith, itself. This is quite troubling for Orthodox Christians who contend for the Faith “once for all” delivered (and defended) to and by the saints.
“Someone up above suggested that, as a mere opinion, the IC is on a par with “Do puppy-doggies go to Heaven?” Personally, I find this sort of reasoning profoundly disrespectful to the Theotokos–and, by extension, to her Son. I cannot fathom how people who profess to venerate Our Lady as the All-Holy One would balk at accepting the IC as doctrine. On a gut level, I guess, I don’t get it. I really don’t.”
The historical record doesn’t reveal that the IC has the pedigree required for a doctrine, much less a dogma of the Faith. And since the Church has never believed that she gradually discerns the essential content of the Faith, which she possesses and passes on, the IC cannot become a doctrine. The only way to make it a doctrine is to admit an evolution from opinions to doctrines, which Church history doesn’t admit and severely questions the credibility of the Christ’s Church as the pillar and ground of the truth (a role that requires full knowledge of what her doctrines are).
“I’ll stick with Fr. Gillet’s reasoning, thank you. And with the Tradition and Teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.”
I’m not an expert on Fr. Gillet and his views, but I think he was more inclined to see the IC as a true, very patristic theological opinion rather than a doctrine. It would have been difficult for him to remain an Orthodox Christian in good conscience if he believed it was a doctrine, which was being denied by many in Holy Orthodoxy. However, I’ll leave more knowledgeable people about Fr. Gillet to address with certainty his position on the matter.
“This would, of course, require a wider understanding of the Church to necessarily include both “lungs”. I am not suggesting that this is the case, merely pointing out that there are theological approaches to ecclesiology that can accommodate the proposition that you don’t necessarily need to change Churches if you find your own deficient in not teaching some doctrine.”
I, too, have thought about the question: What if the “Great Schism” was never consummated and we really are still one Church? I don’t deny the possibility, as I grow daily in my understanding that we do share many beliefs, albeit put in different styles. Thanks for clarifying your point.
“Further to your remark regarding the need for a living bishop to teach a particular article of faith. I think this would contradict the understanding of the Church as a communion of all the faithful, both living and dead. The teaching of a bishop (and most particularly a saint) is still, all things being equal, worthy of credence on a prima facie basis if it has not been authoritatively rejected by his fellow bishops. The teaching would not, of course, could not be binding until it had achieved some level of consensual support however.”
That’s a different perspective that I hadn’t ever thought of. Hmmm. I’m still pretty certain that the indefectibility of the Church requires one living bishop teaching the fullness of faith. Otherwise, the Church would still be true even when the shepherd is no longer leading his flock to the waters of pure doctrine. This is a proposition, which seems impossible to accept.
“So there may well be a treasury of currently contested theological opinions or writings to draw upon that the Church, after mature reflection, will determine *are* part of the authentic deposit of the faith. I point you to how the biblical canon was settled upon as an example.”
I’m afraid that this position suffers from the same doctrinal subjectivism that Diane’s post does. When Holy Scripture and the Fathers speak of firmly holding to the Faith that has been passed on, this entails as a pre-requisite that the Faith is clearly defined in its contents and won’t suffer an alteration through either one belief being made optional or an opinion being made doctrine. Either way, if one accepted such alteration, they couldn’t truly hold to the Faith that has been passed on, for that Faith would change in its most essential nature, viz., its contents. Your example of the settlement of the biblical canon seems inappropriate because neither of us believes in sola scriptura. Since neither of us believes in this false teaching we don’t consider the biblical canon to be a doctrinal issue. The contents of the *revealed* Faith were the same before, during and after the canon was settled. Ergo, the settlement of biblical canon didn’t affect the contents of what was considered Divine Revelation by the Church and can hardly be cited as an example of the contents of the Faith being more clearly revealed over time.
For the IC to be a doctrine it would have had to evolve from a pious opinion to a doctrine and I don’t believe that this is possible. We may grow in understanding and defense of a doctrine, but we don’t realize one day that something is part of the Faith when previously we saw it as an optional opinion.
Adam: I do not believe that this is how it happened, historically. So, this is a straw man.
Why not open your heart to the IC? I ask again: What if Our Lord wants you to? Would you want to resist His leading?
Forgive me for taking this tack, but we women tend to think in these terms. It’s great that the guys give you all the sound historical and theological reasons why the IC is fitting, Scriptural, patristic, etc. But there’s another piece of the equation: the spiritual. Anyone who is devoted to the Immaculata knows the richness and beauty of the IC doctrone. Why deprive yourself of this beautiful belief, this beautiful devotion?
Why?
Adam: We may grow in understanding and defense of a doctrine, but we don’t realize one day that something is part of the Faith when previously we saw it as an optional opinion. To argue otherwise puts the Church in the compromising position of only gradually realizing the essential content of the Faith she teaches and demands adherence to.
I disagree. As has been mentioned above we have to ask what the essential content of the IC is. I think most of us are agreed that the essential content is “…that Mary was never in a state of moral separation from God at any time in her existence.” That is, Mary was sinless.
That Mary was sinless certainly seems to be a universally taught belief of the Church and th Fathers*, some quite emphatically so. It doesn’t seem to me that it was an optional opinion. The debate was rather on when her sanctification occurred. When is the point of doctrine that had to be definitively settled concerning the “essential content of the Faith” of Mary’s sinlessness. Because none disputed the essential (Mary’s sinlessness) there was no need to censure or condemn those who were in error concerning when.
I would draw an analogy with the dogma of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. This is an essential component of the Faith but was not irreformably defined by the Catholic Church until quite late. The Church defined it using the Scholastic terminology of “transubstantiation” (using the term but not necessarily endorsing all the speculation as to how). At the same time the Church did not condemn all those before who had not used the term transubstantiation. The essential belief, that Christ is truly present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, is what was important and not how it was described prior to being formally defined.
The chief question is do the Orthodox believe Mary was free from sin? If yes than questions of when, how and why she was in such a state become secondary. That some Orthodox claim that she was not immaculate and even actually sinned is the troubling thing to Catholics.
James G
*It has been argued that Chrysostom taught that Mary had sinned based on him saying that something she did was a “superflous vanity” though I am not convinced that by this he meant that Mary had actually committed a sin. I would be interested in hearing an Orthodox’s take on this explanation I found on the net:
Chrysotom’s comments, though seemingly anti-Marian / anti-Catholic, by implying that Mary committed venial sins (i.e., “vanity” and a “lack of virture”), must be understood in the context of Chrysostom’s time and theological enviornment.
First of all, Chrysostom was a Greek father, and the Greek fathers (esp. the post-Nicene ones) were nortorious for despising all things Jewish, including Jewish figures of speech. Thus, it’s not surprising that Jesus’ crafty, rabbinical language would be lost on him, though not on Tertullian and other Latin fathers (i.e., “Who is my mother” being a rabbinical reference to the true Israel, not to Mary herself …something that Tertullian, Ambrose, and other non-Greeks have no problem discerning).
Secondly, not only was Chrysostom a Greek father (and thus bound by Greek theology when it came to Original Sin), but he also wrote before St. Augustine formulated our present theology on Original Sin – something that came about via Augustine’s conflict with the Pelagian heretics, which took place just at the end of Chrysostom’s life. So, needless to say, we cannot apply Augustinian theology (in which venial sin is recognized as the result of concupiscence stemming from Original Sin) to Chrysostom. Rather, in Chrysostom’s native Greek theology (and in Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic theology to this day), there was no sense of an inherent “knowledge of sin” (per Augustine’s view of Original Sin), but, for the Greeks, venial sins like vanity were chalked up to the limitations of human nature itself (as God created it), and not necessarily to fallen human nature. This is because the Greek theology of Original Sin is based upon the principal of “deification” (becoming like God) as opposed to the Latin (and Syrian) basis of “sanctification” (being made holy). So, for Chrysostom, and all the Greeks, to be without what we would call venial sin (e.g. personal faults and shortcomings) would imply a perfection of deification, and a sense of divinity itself! So, when Chrysostom states that Mary was “vain” or that she “lacked virtue,” he is not saying that she lacks holiness or that she is a sinner. Rather, all he’s saying (from his Greek, theological point of view) is that she’s human. And, while this is difficult for Romans like ourselves to appreciate, one really has to keep in mind that, not only was Chrysostom a Greek, but he also simply did not have the benefit of our present, Augustinian theology on Original Sin, which dotted all the “i’s” and crossed all the “t’s” in regard to how Original Sin and venial sin, are manifested in a person. In other words, Chrysostom is writing before the Pelagian controversy, and so we cannot apply a post-Pelagian, Catholic / Augustinian understanding to him …and in the same sense that we cannot apply the specific Trinitarian formula adopted at Nicaea to any ante-Nicene fathers.
Diane,
Perhaps but then so have many other issues. Check out the history of your own posts. :)
Adam,
The Holy Virgin Mary was always united to the Lord, hence Hail, Thou full of Grace! of the Archangel Gabriel.
Dear Hieromonk Gregory: Perhaps what? I fail to follow you; sorry.
JamesG: Your remarks re Chrysostom reminded me of an incident in C.S. Lewis’s space fantasy Perelandra. In this novel, a new “Eve” (on the planet Venus, of all places) is being tempted by the devil, who has possessed the body of a space explorer. The tempter persuades the hitherto naked “Eve” to don colorful plumage (IIRC), which gratifies her womanly vanity. Ransom, the protagonist, whose task is to help prevent her “fall,” is disturbed by this; but then he realizes that, so far, only her vanity has been aroused…she has not yet succumbed to actual sin. This seems like a rather fine distinction to me, but I guess I can see how feminine vanity (at least in its incipient stages) can be perfectly natural and not necessarily sinful.
Not that I think the Theotokos herself was actually vain; quite the contrary….I believe she was the very icon of humility. But, anyway, even if she had been vain, from Chrysostom’s perspective she would not have been a sinner, as you point out.
“Thirdly, we recognize the fact that Latin theologians very often used inadequate arguments in their desire to prove that the Immaculate Conception belonged to the Byzantine theological tradition. They sometimes forced the sense of the poetic expressions to be found in the liturgy of Byzantium; at times they misinterpreted what were merely common Byzantine terms to describe Mary’s incomparable holiness, as a sign of belief in the Immaculate Conception.”
I wish Fr. Gillet would have pursued this line of argument in his analysis of texts. He leaves the majority of his texts UNcontextualized. Most of the quotes that I have read concerning the spotless and immaculate Mary in Byzantine texts are contained within the language of devotion. The language of devotion is poetic and often is unconcerned or does not have as its aim precise technical and theological pursuits. Within the language of devotion the Fathers sometimes, and especially the Desert Fathers, speak of God’s absolute sovereignty, their wickedness, and all their works being but “filthy rags” before Him that would make Calvin proud. Taken to a different context like theological anthropology and Christology it’s obviously heretical, but within the language of devotion it is often quite proper. We often in our own prayers emphasize our own deadness in sins and God had to resurrect us out of our filthy ways.
I see a similar notion here with the language of some Fathers regarding the Blessed Virgin. Palamas makes the most interesting argument that does relate to theological anthropology. His argument is well known and is integral to patristic theology, i.e. that the law was a moral cultivator in culling out the Incarnation. This is the standard Economical reading of the law in Orthodox Theology. But this needn’t imply the immaculate conception as understood by modern Rome. First the concept of being in the “state of grace” is foreign to Palamas’ thinking. Secondly, no person can be “virtuous” apart from the co-operation of the will in Gregory Palamas. It’s possible that the culling out and setting apart the Jews with the moral cultivator of the law has something to do with the blood lines in antiquity. Many were called blameless in face of the law (e.g. St. Paul, Elizabeth, Zechariah, et al.), but this needn’t imply that they never sinned.
The weakness of this article, which can’t be faulted too much since it is short and limited in scope, is that it takes its point of departure for analysis the view of the Fathers after the schism. Again, we are left with a mixed bag in denial and implied affirmation. If we are to examine the earliest Christians and Fathers on views of Mary, none of them speak of Mary’s sinlessness and many of them speak of her being a sinner. St. Irenaeus’ view of the New Eve has to do with typology in the choices that Mary (the New Eve) and Eve make. The choice of the latter brought death, and the choice of the former brought life. It says nothing about conceptions or about moments of existence. We must affirm what the text says and not what we think it also implies with anachronistic readings. Up to the 4th Century the earliest Christians and Fathers believe that Christ alone is without personal sin. It is only at this time (4th Century) that some of the Fathers speculate that for large portions of Mary’s life Mary was sinless, this is first entertained by St. Ephraim:
“‘You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?’ (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).”
And when she was cleansed by the second birth or regeneration that she was brought to a point of being a sinner,
“The Son of the Most High came and dwelt in me, and I became His Mother; and as by a second birth I brought Him forth so did He bring me forth by the second birth, because He put His Mother’s garments on, she clothed her body with His glory.” (On the Nativity of Christ in the Flesh, 11)
Photios
Photios, loaded question: Do you want to think of the Theotokos as a sinner? If so, why?
Doesn’t this strike you as more a Protestant than an Orthodox way of thinking?
Photius J: If we are to examine the earliest Christians and Fathers on views of Mary, none of them speak of Mary’s sinlessness and many of them speak of her being a sinner.
That’s an interesting assertion. I would be interested to see citations backing it up; chapter and verse so to speak.
And when she was cleansed by the second birth or regeneration that she was brought to a point of being a sinner,
This sentence is unclear to me. I do not understand what you are trying to say, please clarify.
Speaking of St Ephraim, I just last night emailed EE a link to Pope Benedict the XV’s encyclical declaring him a Doctor of the Universal Church. Check it out.
James G
Diane,
I don’t *wish* to think of any person as a sinner, Theotokos or what not. On this question, I see no theological reason to set her apart from the rest of the common stock of humanity.
As far as Protestant or Orthodox, (1) you obviously aren’t reading the texts of those that I’m of the same theological camp in Orthodoxy, and (2) I’m not really concerned about such categories. These are needless partisans which detract from the focus of the question: What is the truth of matter?
Photios
James,
This was a typo,
And when she was cleansed by the second birth or regeneration that she was brought up to a point of being sinless*,
See RC scholar O’Carrol’s book Theotokos on Ephraim. He says that Ephraim attributed to Mary, doubts about the Resurrection.
Perhaps it would be nice to see a clarification of what the term “sin” means.
I think a lot of the discussion/argument is fruitless unless there’s an agreement as to the terms.
So…what is “sin”? And what is “sinlessness”?
Evagrius,
How about that good ol’ standard view of the greek Fathers as sin as “missing the mark?”
Photios
And what would “missing the mark” mean?
That’s just replacing one vague term with another.
Not very useful.
I see no theological reason to set her apart from the rest of the common stock of humanity.
But…that is precisely the Protestant argument. “She’s just like the rest of us.”
I don’t know about you, but I for one have never virginally given birth to God.
Have you?
He says that Ephraim attributed to Mary, doubts about the Resurrection.
If St. Ephraim made such a claim, so what? No single father is infallible.
Is there the slightest Scriptural evidence that Mary entertained doubts re the Resurrection? (Even if there were, doubts are not sins, so what would such evidence prove?)
Diane,
The point about Ephraim was to highlight that views about Mary being wholly sinless for a huge portion of her life (this is not the view that she was sinless for her whole life) did not come into being until the 4th Century. If that is troubling you, then it is the fact of the matter that is your trouble.
The point that I wish to “cull” out is that there is not a continuity of Tradition to which the Immaculate Conception can draw upon. It is rather, based on “other” developments like Augustine’s view of Original Sin and concupiscence and then coupling that with other developments like Mary being sinless for large portions of her life, and then that idea being developed to her being sinful at no time in her life. Once we’ve done this, we’ve gone beyond the scriptural synthesis and wholly into speculation.
As far as your scriptural evidence about doubts, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephraim, and Basil certainly did based on the evidence they saw in the text both old and new testament.
Even to take for the sake of argument that their exegesis was faulty and doesn’t speak to that issue, you don’t base a doctrine on the silence of scripture, especially since Christ in the scriptures is counted as the only person that is sinless.
Photios
‘But…that is precisely the Protestant argument. “She’s just like the rest of us.”’
Vocationally no, ontologically yes; fallen humanity and all. This is what I tried to summarize with the preferential treatment of Jacob over Esau in hinting at a different way to understand Romans 9, instead of the assumed predilectional predestinational view.
Photios
PJ:As far as your scriptural evidence about doubts, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephraim, and Basil certainly did based on the evidence they saw in the text both old and new testament.
The quote from Basil I give below but can you supply a citation for Cyril and Ephraim?
I’m still a little curious as to what you are implying. You are saying that Mary had doubts, but are you equating doubts with sin? Does “doubts” necessarily imply sin? If it is “doubt” in the sense of disbelief then yes it is sin. If it is “doubt” in the sense of confusion or not understanding than is it really sin?
What is sin? You define it by the ambiguous “missing the mark.” However the Western conception of sin that you dislike so much would not define it that way. Sin would be a turning away from God. In that conception a doubt in the sense of confusion would not necessarily entail a turning away from God and therefore sin. After all, only Jesus knew what he would have to suffer and endure to redeem the world. Would it then not be natural for the Crucifixion to be confusing to all not having that knowledge?
James G
Basil Epistle 260:
“Up to the 4th Century the earliest Christians and Fathers believe that Christ alone is without personal sin. It is only at this time (4th Century) that some of the Fathers speculate that for large portions of Mary’s life Mary was sinless, this is first entertained by St. Ephraim..”
One could also argue that the term “Theotokos” wasn’t a common one until the 4th century.
If it is “doubt” in the sense of confusion or not understanding than is it really sin?
Yes, indeed. That is just what I was trying to get at. We know Our Lady did not understand everything–she was immaculate, not omniscient. ;-)
Photios: But what she was vocationally has implications for what she was ontologically.
The Ark that contained the Old Covenant had to be absolutely pure. How much more, then, the Ark that contained the New Covenant!
“What is sin? You define it by the ambiguous “missing the mark.” However the Western conception of sin that you dislike so much would not define it that way. Sin would be a turning away from God. In that conception a doubt in the sense of confusion would not necessarily entail a turning away from God and therefore sin.”
Exactly.
james g,
The one from Cyril echoes Basil which you have provided and uses the same Old Testament passage about Simeon. I believe it is in his Commentary on Luke, which I can provide, but I don’t have access to my library at the moment. And you won’t find the passage online, at least not that I know of.
I’m not equating doubts with being ignorant or absence of knowledge. I’m equating it with a lack of faith and failure to trust God in whatever sense this might be, because as St. Pauls says “whatever is not of faith is sin.” Rom 14:23. This verse cuts to the heart, because no matter how noble we might appear, any attitude or act that is lacking in God’s trust or promise is sin. This is because God looks to the heart.
I cannot imagine standing before a holy God and thinking that I am without sin with my doubts.
Photios
“One could also argue that the term “Theotokos” wasn’t a common one until the 4th century.”
I could careless about the term, concepts and content are what count. The concept is right there in Irenaeus and Ignatius.
Photios
Took forever but here’s Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John book XII:
concepts and content are what count. The concept is right there in Irenaeus and Ignatius.
But that’s just it. One could say just the same about the IC. It’s in Scripture: “kecharitomene” And it’s in the ECFs — “New Eve vs. Old Eve.”
You may cavil at this, but you can no more convince a Calvinist, say, that “Theotokos” is in Irenaeus than I can convince you that “Immaculate Conception” is in Irenaeus. And no amount of fancy footwork can obviate this: “Theotokos” is no more “perspicuous” in the primitive Depositum than the C s. (Or than the Trinity or Hypostatic Union or Divinity of the Holy Spirit is, either, for that matter.)
This is precisely what Development of Doctrine is all about: The “content and concept” are in the primitive Depositum Fidei, even if the terminology isn’t. Whether you’ll concede it or not (and I assume you won’t), you are invoking Development of Doctrine here. You invoke it (unconsciously and implicitly) when it suits your argument and makes your case; then you repudiate it when it doesn’t.
Correcting typos (above): “And no amount of fancy footwork can obviate this: “Theotokos” is no more “perspicuous” in the primitive Depositum than the IC is.”
‘And it’s in the ECFs — “New Eve vs. Old Eve.”’
I’ve already responded to this and your anachronstic and misuse of it in St. Irenaeus.
Classical Calvinism thinks Mary is Theotokos so I don’t know what your point is about that. It is only in their appropriation in Chalcedon that we have a kind of Nestorianism and this is due to their received Augustinism in Christ being the predestined man by grace.
Photios
“kecharitomene”
And you are familiar with the uses of this term of other biblical saints?
Photios
I cannot imagine standing before a holy God and thinking that I am without sin with my doubts.
Do you think the Theotokos had any such qualms? Do not the Orthodox celebrate her bodily Assumption into Heaven, just as we do? Does said Assumption not imply that she had no reason to quake in fear before the Throne of God? She was raised up to Heaven by her Son’s power, after all! You see what I’m getting at?
Where is the Scriptural evidence that Our Lady sinfully lacked faith in her Son? (Please note that he Gospels never say that she was the one doubting her Son’s sanity when “His Mother and His brothers stood outside.” Her mere presence in that group does not mean she was thinking the same thoughts that some of His other relatives [perhaps] were. Can we read our Lady’s mind in this instance? If not, then how on earth can we ascribe sinful doubts to her? Sincere question. :))
Photios: From what I’ve been told, that term was never used for other NT saints. The term used to describe Saint Stephen, for instance, was another Greek phrase altogether.
Do you really think Catholic defenders of the IC have never thought through that argument? We ain’t as dumb as we look! ;)
I’ve already responded to this and your anachronstic and misuse of it in St. Irenaeus.
Anachronistic sez you!! That’s just my point: When you want to invoke Development of Doctrine to suit your purposes, you insist (without demonstrating) that the doctrine in question (Theotokos in this case) was implicit in the earliest ECFs. But you turn around and dismiss (again, without demonstrating) Catholics’ use of DoD to support their doctrines. This is so self-serving, if you don’t mind my saying so.
Photios, my dear, just because you think you have made a convincing case that my use of New Eve is “anachronistic,” that doesn’t mean you actually have made a convincing case. You’ve convinced only yourself, no one else.
It is no more anachronistic to show the link between New Eve and IC than to show the link between Irenaeus’s terminology re Mary’s divine maternity and the Theotokos doctrine. In bith cases, the idea is implicit or present “in germ” in Irenaeus; it is elucidated and crystallized in the later dogmatic formulation.
It’s the same deal. And your continued assertion to the contrary is not convincing. (Assertions seldom are. ;))
Classical Calvinism thinks Mary is Theotokos
LOL! That would be news to any Calvinist I’ve ever talked to, but hey, maybe you know different ones. (I do not dispute that Calvin believed the doctrine. But there seems to be a pretty wide gulf between Calvin and modern Calvinists when it comes to Marian beliefs.)
But, be that as it may, I’m perfectly willing to use another example—say, Baptists or Pentecostals. Try convincing them that the Early Church (before the councils) believed Mary was the Mother of God…hokey-doke?
God bless,
Diane
Photios J: I’m not equating doubts with being ignorant or absence of knowledge. I’m equating it with a lack of faith and failure to trust God in whatever sense this might be…
I don’t think that either Basil or Cyril (it was in his commentary on John, Book 12 which I tried to post but it hasn’t shown-up yet) can be construed as going that far. Neither of them explicitly state that Mary committed sin nor that her doubt was a failure to trust in God. Mary’s doubt is mere speculation on their part; as Cyril stated “For, doubtless, some such train of thought as this passed through her mind…” Mary was ignorant of the necessity or results of Christ’s Crucifixion. She did not fail to trust God, she only did not comprehend his mysterious ways.
Liken this to St. Joseph’s reaction on learning of the Incarnation. In his ignorance Joseph decided to put Mary away quietly, and he is called a righteous man. Upon the angel revealing to Joseph the truth he was no longer troubled. In Joseph’s ignorance he doubted Mary’s virginity but no longer once God’s will and plan was revealed to him. In the same way Mary did not understand the Crucifixion but afterwards was perfect in her belief. How is ignorance sin?
James G
James,
Sorry, your Cyril quote got caught in that pesky spam filter. I recovered it, and now it’s comment #73.
James, your Joseph analogy is perfect. I hadn’t thought of that one….thanks!
Photios, I apologize for any asperity in my most recent posts. I simply wanted to say: Asserting is not proving. Which, of course, is always self-evidently the case in such discussions as these.
Diane,
Two basic truths are required to affirm that Mary is Theotokos (literally, God-bearer):
(1) That Christ is one person in both humanity and divinity, and,
(2) That the Person of the Logos took flesh and was born of a Virgin.
That is the conceptual content of the doctrine.
The kind of devlopment that I have in mind is simply in precise and consistent use of theological vocabulary that is being used to describe the same reality, but I do not admit of new conceptual content to be added to the prior understanding in order to tease out new meaning. For instance, for Irenaeus, Mary is the New Eve and she is contrasted with Eve based on the choices of the two. That is what the text says in Irenaeus. He does not mention or contrast the two based on their conception or their existence. Types are based on real historicity of which allegory is not, and the context of Irenaeus’ type is the choices of the two women. For you to draw out the meaning of the Immaculate Conception out of this is to pour additional meaning into New Eve that goes beyond what Irenaeus says. I’m content with taking the text as it says.
James,
Thanks for posting the quote and I had no idea it was online.
It is quite clear in the text that Cyril has in mind what I state by the meaning of doubt. He defines what he means by this doubt, i.e. Mary having the absence of virtue and lack of trust, in thinking that Christ may have been “deceived” or “erred” in thinking He is the Life.
Roman Catholic scholar O’Carroll states in his book Theotokos on this passage that,
“In this commentary, [Cyril of Alexandria] uses phrases about Mary which seem to continue the opinions of Origen and St. Basil on imperfection in her faith: ‘In all likelihood, even the Lord’s Mother was scandalised by the unexpected passion, and the intensely bitter death on the Cross…all but deprived her of right reason.’ He tries to imagine the thoughts that passed through Mary’s mind. Had Jesus been mistaken when he said he was the Son of Almighty God? Why was he crucified who said he was the life? Why did he who had brought Lazarus back to life not come down from the Cross? Then he recalls what had been written of the Lord’s Mother: Simeon’s sword, ‘the sharp force of the Passion which could turn a woman’s mind to strange thoughts.’ The word woman is significant, for [Cyril] thought that the frailty of the female sex was a factor in what he then thought was collapse.” p. 113
I agree with you that Cyril is speculating and that’s just the point of this. The whole exercise is highly speculative. Only God can judge the heart. However, the witness that many Fathers prescribed to her these failings, buttressed with the fact that Christ alone is without sin by all Fathers, St. Paul’s statement in Rom 5:12 that Adam’s sin caused him and his progenity to die and that THAT death causes us to sin, tends to come down on the negative that Mary in whatever small sense it may be had personal faults of “missing the mark” and is part of that common stock of humanity that needs Redemption in the same sense that every man needs.
Photios
Diane,
You don’t have to apologize to me. You’re not offending me. I’m quite content that people have different view points on this and feel strong about them.
Photios
Interesting entries! As a Byzantine Catholic, I have honestly had problems with the IC. Of course it’s important to have a clear understanding of what the IC teaches…
Of course there’s no issue with the belief that the Most Holy Theotokos was without sin. But as far as the original sin goes… the IC only makes sense, really, in the Latin concept of O.S. It doesn’t work with the Eastern concept. I personally take issue with the Mother of God being without concupiscence (the post-fall tendency we humans have to sin). If she was without this tendency, well big whoop that she was sinless. It would be easy to be without sin if we were without concupiscence– it’s easy to not smoke if you’re without the addiction.
I feel that the IC doctrine places the Theotokos somehow above humanity.
P J: …buttressed with the fact that Christ alone is without sin by all Fathers…
I always get nervous when people start bandying about “alone,” we all know where that leads :p. I would be interested in some citations where Fathers use “alone” if you have any ready.
James G
buttressed with the fact that Christ alone is without sin by all Fathers…
Again, forgive me, Photios, but this sounds like warmed-over Protestantism.
Protestants, not Orthodox, seem ready and willing to pass off the Theotokos as “just like the rest of us” except that she happened to bear Jesus.
It seems exceedingly strange to hear such an argument from an Orthodox. Even the other EO opponents of the IC I’ve known do not seem to go as far as you do.
It makes me wonder whether there is a Protestantizing tendency among contemporary Orthodox — whether, in their eagerness to receive evangelical converts, some Orthodox jurisdictions may be willing to tolerate a fair amount of residual unreconstructed Protestantism. This is just an aside — just speculation on my part — but this isn’t the first time I’ve wondered about it. There’s a lovely Orthodox convert lady on an Orthodox list I occasionally visit who sounds exactly like a Reformed Baptist with smells, bells, and a few icons. I am not comparing your arguments to hers, Photios, but this Theotokos-qua-Sinner stuff really does give me pause.
Not having concuspicence doesn’t mean not having ignorance, failty or doubt or desire. It means the ability not to acquiesce completely to them and their effects.
I’m a little confused as to the notion that death “causes” sin.
I would have thought that death is a result of sin.
( Death here being clarified as the separation of soul, spirit and body- i.e; the material dissolution of a unity that should be transformed at the time of “natural” death).
Of course, if death means being a contingent, temporal and unstable creature subject to inevitable decay, then that is certainly a cause of sin.
I’ve always been intrigued by those who hold that Adam and Eve were “immortal”, that, in fact, all creation was.
It certainly would have been an interesting and crowded world full of immortal humans, animals, plants etc; had Adam and Eve not sinned.
I suppose that fossils of animal life before Adam and Eve are just chimera.
.
“I feel that the IC doctrine places the Theotokos somehow above humanity.”
Doesn’t one of the hymns to the Theotokos state that she is more glorious and beyond compare than the seraphim, cherubim etc?
If that’s true, then she certainly is above even the apostles and saints and certainly the rest of humanity.
Karen: “If she was without this tendency, well big whoop that she was sinless. It would be easy to be without sin if we were without concupiscence– it’s easy to not smoke if you’re without the addiction.”
I think this is questionable. Concupiscence may make it more difficult to not sin, how can we really know how ‘easy’ it is to refrain from sin, even with grace? After all, Adam and Eve, and the devil and his cohort too, all sinned even though they did not have concupiscence.
With all due respect to Sts. Cyril et al, their interpretation of the Gospel of Luke is simply wrong. The whole point of the first part of Luke’s gospel is to contrast Mary’s faith with Zechariah’s lack thereof (which is why the latter was struck dumb until the birth of St. John the Baptist). It seems highly unlikely then that St. Luke would include a passage (the one about the “sword piercing her heart”) the meaning of which would supposedly undo the very point he’s trying to make. Much more in keeping with the spirit of the Gospel of Luke is the interpretation of St. Ambrose:
“His mother stood before the Cross, and , while the men fled, she remained undaunted. Consider whether the Mother of Jesus, who did not lose her courage, could ever lose her virginal purity. With eyes full of pity, she looked upon her Son’s wounds, by which, as she knew, would come the redemption of the world. She, who did not fear her Son’s killers, assisted at his generous martyrdom.
Her Son hung upon the Cross; his Mother offered herself to his persecutors. If she had been there for no other reason than to be slain before her Son’s Cross, then she would deserve praise for her maternal affection, because of which she did not want to outlive her Son. But if she wanted to die along with her Son, it was because she looked forward to rising with him. Well did she know the mystery, that she had given birth to One who was to rise; moreover, she knew that her Son’s death would happen for the good of all. …..”
The analogy made by some to the doctrine of the Theotokos is, I think, an apt one. It is clear that this teaching was denied by a relatively large portion of the Apostolic Church and continues to be denied today by the Assyrian Church of the East. The reason for their denial is that this title is not found in their tradition nor in Sacred Scripture. They could make the argument that, since they were unaware of such a tradition, it couldn’t be a part of the Apostolic Deposit. But, in fact, they would be wrong. It is a part of that deposit, though not explicitly so. Christology had to develop to a certain point before it could be seen clearly that this title is appropriately given to the Blessed Virgin. Similarly, the fact that a few Fathers, on the basis of a rather bad exegesis of the Gospel of Luke, allow for some imperfections in Mary is hardly evidence that the doctrine of her sinlessness is not Apostolic. My point here is that we can’t simply take the least common denominator approach to Apostolic Tradition. One cannot say that just because a few Fathers deny a belief, it is, by that very fact, not a part of the Apostolic Tradition. The reason for this is that these Fathers, while they accept the tradition, may be mistaken about its implications. One might wonder, for instance, whether St. Cyril would have accepted the teaching of Chalcedon as an implication of earlier conciliar teaching. I think he probably would have, but only with some convincing.
Now, here’s an account of how the personal sinlessness of our Lady and her IC are implications of the Apostolic Deposit.
Without a doubt, many of the Fathers taught clearly that the Blessed Virgin needed to be utterly pure in order to fulfill her vocation. So, for instance, St. Jerome says that her “purity was so great that she merited to be the Mother of the Lord.” This is all well and good. But what does this mean? How pure did she need to be? Was a tiny bit of sin compatible with her vocation? Well, I think the general answer to that question in the Catholic Church and, as Fr. Lev points out, in a large part of the Orthodox Church as well (at least up to the 19th century) is that she had to be totally sinless. This sensum fidelium seems correct to me. Once one understands fully that Mary is the Mother of God, i.e., that God dwelt in her womb, it becomes quite apparent that there can be no question of sin in her case. If she were in any sense impure, then God could not dwell in her. Once one accepts her total purity with regard to personal sin, it is a small step to see the truth of the IC. For, if she were without the grace of the Holy Spirit at some point in her life, she would have lacked the purity required to be the Mother of God. The reverse would also be true. If she lacked the purity to be the Mother of God, the one born of her could not be God.
Now certainly one can dispute the above analysis. But, it seems to me that what one cannot dispute is the possibility of its being a true analysis of the situation and a true reflection of what is implied in the Apostolic Deposit. But the question of how we know whether this analysis is correct cannot be answered by going back to the opinions of a few of the Fathers, especially when their interpretation of Scripture in the given instance is manifestly incorrect.
Ed
P.S.: Just one other point. When the Fathers speak of our Lady’s “virginal purity” they are not simply referring to physical virginity, but rather to the whole of her spiritual life. In calling her the Blessed Virgin, a title which encompasses the whole of her life, they implicitly call her holy and pure from the very moment of her existence.
Oh, Ed! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
In her Immaculate Heart,
Diane
“I’ve always been intrigued by those who hold that Adam and Eve were “immortal”, that, in fact, all creation was.”
Not my position. My view following Maximus and the views of Irenaeus and the early apologist was that Adam and Eve were created neither immortal or mortal, but innocent, capable of either. I also reject that both were created in a “state of grace,” or the donum superadditum, Original righteousness, etc.
Photios
My view following Maximus and the views of Irenaeus and the early apologist was that Adam and Eve were created neither immortal or mortal, but innocent, capable of either. I also reject that both were created in a “state of grace,” or the donum superadditum, Original righteousness, etc.
Well then. Suppose, just suppose, that Adam and Eve did not “sin”. What would have been the result?
If they continued neither mortal nor immortal then what about their descendants. Would they too have the same state?
Of course, all this is mere speculation.
BTW…Iraneaus actually held both positions, ( that Adam was mortal and that he was “immortal”), during his life.
( According to M.C. Steenberg, Irenaeus on creation : the cosmic Christ and the saga of redemption).
“Well then. Suppose, just suppose, that Adam and Eve did not “sin”. What would have been the result?”
Read my paper on Maximus. I answer that question there.
Oh and thanks for the book reference on Irenaeus by Steenberg, I think that came out fairly recently and I’ve been looking for that one.
Photios
Evagrius,
I said, “I feel that the IC doctrine places the Theotokos somehow above humanity.”
You responded, “Doesn’t one of the hymns to the Theotokos state that she is more glorious and beyond compare than the seraphim, cherubim etc?
If that’s true, then she certainly is above even the apostles and saints and certainly the rest of humanity.”
I think it would be safer to say that she is perfectly human, not super human. She was/is the New Eve, and the example of what all humanity is called to be. We need to be careful, though that we start to think she was MORE than human– some kind of demi-goddess. Such an attitude explains why we Catholics are so often accused by Protestants of Mary worship.
T. Chan,
I said, “If she was without this tendency, well big whoop that she was sinless. It would be easy to be without sin if we were without concupiscence– it’s easy to not smoke if you’re without the addiction.”
You answered, “I think this is questionable. Concupiscence may make it more difficult to not sin, how can we really know how ‘easy’ it is to refrain from sin, even with grace? After all, Adam and Eve, and the devil and his cohort too, all sinned even though they did not have concupiscence.”
Let me expand on my smoking analogy, if I may: concupiscence is like an addiction to nicotine. I, being a nonsmoker, have no addiction to cigarettes, but I can still choose to pick up a pack of Marlboros and light up. My lack of addiction to nicotine wouldn’t prevent me from smoking, but it sure makes it easier to avoid it. Likewise, lack of concupiscence doesn’t prevent people from sinning (just ask Adam and Eve), but it makes it much easier to NOT sin. In a sense, then, the IC diminishes Mary, because it renders her sinlessness as something that was quite easy for her to maintain.
And I can’t help but ask, If God could do this for Mary, why couldn’t He do it for all mankind?
To the mind of the Eastern Christian, whether or not the Mother of God was sinless or when or how she became so (was it at conception or at birth or at some later point?) is rather pointless. What does it matter? What does it have to do with Who Christ is or His redemptive work?
99. In a sense, then, the IC diminishes Mary, because it renders her sinlessness as something that was quite easy for her to maintain.
With grace, all things are “easy,” even if the flesh is still in rebellion. I don’t look at it as diminishing Mary, but exalting God, and the plenitude of grace that He gave to her.
And I can’t help but ask, If God could do this for Mary, why couldn’t He do it for all mankind?
Why should He? He has already gives us the opportunity to be united with Him, and the grace that we need to attain it. One could say that anything beyond that is superfluous for us and He certainly doesn’t owe it to us. But for the Blessed Virgin Mary, something more is fitting, given her role in the redemption of mankind, and the rest of us are not called to that role.
To the mind of the Eastern Christian, whether or not the Mother of God was sinless or when or how she became so (was it at conception or at birth or at some later point?) is rather pointless.
For Catholics, this is not just dry speculation, but truly a matter of Divine Faith–and it is, among other things, an acknowledgement of God’s great work.
As for Evagrius’s comment, yes the Blessed Mother is higher than the rest of creation (except for the human nature of Christ), not because of nature, but because of the grace that she received.
“I think it would be safer to say that she is perfectly human, not super human. She was/is the New Eve, and the example of what all humanity is called to be. We need to be careful, though that we start to think she was MORE than human– some kind of demi-goddess. Such an attitude explains why we Catholics are so often accused by Protestants of Mary worship.”
Well, I’m at a loss for words here. I’m Orthodox, from a Catholic background, and belonged for a number of years, to an Eastern Catholic parish, ( so…I have acquaintance with both sides from experience).
I once took my parents to an Eastern Catholic Liturgy, the full Chrysostom one.
My mother was quite impressed and noted how often the Theotokos was mentioned and praised. A lot more than in the Catholic Mass, she noticed. She liked that.
If Protestants knew about Orthodox, they’d say the same thing, wouldn’t they?
And yes, T. Chan. The Theotokos is higher than the rest of creation save for Christ. That’s implicit in the hymns though never explicitely stated.
102 evagrius–it’s a beautiful hymn and I am in agreement with what you were saying; I was a bit puzzled by Karen’s response to you, and I was really responding to her comment–sorry I didn’t make that more clear.
Adam said,
“I, too, have thought about the question: What if the “Great Schism” was never consummated and we really are still one Church?”
Then we’d be worrying about uniting with the Oriental Orthodox, of course!
Hehe… sorry. Just wanted to inject a little humor.
I’m not very smart with regards to these things, but I would like to say that this is one of the best discussions I’ve ever read regarding Orthodox-Catholic issues.
OK, evagrius. This is the first time it even crossed my mind that you migfht be Orthodox rather than Catholic. If anyone is a candidate for Coming Back Home, you are, dollink! (Esteemed Eirenikon Editor, please pardon the personal bluntness…I invoke my special staus here as a woman and a mother as an excuse…you know what mothers are like!)
And I can’t help but ask, If God could do this for Mary, why couldn’t He do it for all mankind?
Why can’t He transfigure Himself before each one of us and reveal His glory to us, as He did for Peter, James, and John, and not even for the rest of the apostles? Why can’t He knock each and every one of us off our high horse, so to soeak, and appear to us in a flash of light, as He did to Saul of Tarsus? Why can’t He rain down manna whenever someone, somewhere, feels hunger? Why can’t He split large bodies of water and create a dry path whenever we want to cross to the other shore? Why can’t He promise every single person in the world a posterity numerous as the stars of the sky? Why can’t He grant us all visions of Himself and His Mother, as He did for great saints like Juan Diego, Margaret Mary, Catherine Laboure’, Bernadette,, and Faustina?
God has frequently done special things for particular people. That is His prerogative. As those apophatic ’50s-vintage nuns would say, “It’s a mystery!”
“I think it would be safer to say that she is perfectly human, not super human. She was/is the New Eve, and the example of what all humanity is called to be.”
This is precisely, I think, what the IC doctrine means. The point is that sin is not human it’s the sub-human condition into which we are fallen. As to being more glorious than the Seraphim etc., I think that that’s the logical implication of the Incarnation – for al the redeemed and not just the Mother of God. If man was created a little lower than the Angels, he has since been crowned with glory and honour (Ps. 8) because the uncreated Word has united human nature to himself (a thing he has not done for any angel). It is interesting that Photius’ view on the Incarnation as being part of the dvine plan independently of the fact of sin has been held by many Catholic theologians including…none other than Scotus, a notorious pro-IC agitator “who fired France for Mary without spot”!
The point is that sin is not human it’s the sub-human condition into which we are fallen.
Thank you, Father Paul. And very interesting point about Scotus–LOL!
“Let me expand on my smoking analogy, if I may: concupiscence is like an addiction to nicotine. I, being a nonsmoker, have no addiction to cigarettes, but I can still choose to pick up a pack of Marlboros and light up. My lack of addiction to nicotine wouldn’t prevent me from smoking, but it sure makes it easier to avoid it. Likewise, lack of concupiscence doesn’t prevent people from sinning (just ask Adam and Eve), but it makes it much easier to NOT sin. In a sense, then, the IC diminishes Mary, because it renders her sinlessness as something that was quite easy for her to maintain.”
Karen,
Couldn’t the same be said for our Lord? He was tempted by Satan. Are we to say that his resistance to that temptation is diminished because He had no concupiscence? I think not. In fact, it seems to me that those of us who suffer from concupiscence never feel the real violence of temptation precisely because we so easily succumb. Satan doesn’t have to work very hard. The holier an individual is, the more violent and subtle and varied the temptation would have to be in order to cause the individual to give in.
“And I can’t help but ask, If God could do this for Mary, why couldn’t He do it for all mankind?”
This is an interesting question for which there is no absolutely clear answer. But then one could ask the same question of a variety of different events in history. For instance, why did our Lord appear to Saul on the road to Damascus? Remember, Saul was on his way to kill Christians. Why then did God appear to him? Why did he get this special grace? And why doesn’t He do that for all of us? I think this is to some extent a mystery. But at the same time, certainly part of the answer may be that God foresaw that Saul would correspond to the mercy and grace shown him. In the same way, any number of women in Israel might have been the mother of the Messiah but God chose Mary perhaps because He foresaw that she would correspond perfectly to the special grace bestowed on her. In fact, this is why we call her blessed. As our Lord says, “blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.” The Immaculate Conception is indeed a special grace, but who would deny that God does confer special graces when He intends to prepare an individual for a unique and special vocation.
Ed
In fact, it seems to me that those of us who suffer from concupiscence never feel the real violence of temptation precisely because we so easily succumb.
Man, ain’t that the truth!
But at the same time, certainly part of the answer may be that God foresaw that Saul would correspond to the mercy and grace shown him. In the same way, any number of women in Israel might have been the mother of the Messiah but God chose Mary perhaps because He foresaw that she would correspond perfectly to the special grace bestowed on her. In fact, this is why we call her blessed. As our Lord says, “blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.” The Immaculate Conception is indeed a special grace, but who would deny that God does confer special graces when He intends to prepare an individual for a unique and special vocation.
Excellent point about God’s forekowledge. Once again, Mr. de Vita, like the inimitable Jeeves, you have rung the bell and are therefore entitled to take the coconut.
Thank you for the kind words Diane!
Ed
Fr. Paul,
I’m afraid that the similarity between Scotus and I on that question are only superficial.
Creation serves the purposes of the Incarnation. In other words, God creates the kosmos because He wills the mystery of His emodiment. I stand within the Incarnation and look back upon history. The Incarnation is the mystery of what all can be said truly and dogmatically about God and man. The ordo theologiae starts first with the Incarnation and proceeds from there to understand every question. It was the Person of the Son, Who was the One God and Lord of Israel, Yahweh, I am the One Who Is, the One with No Name:, and the Ancient of Days. Christ came to His own and they did not know Him, and He came to reveal the Father and send the Spirit.
The question of the IC undermines the healing of humanity. If Christ does not take on our fallen humanity en toto and recapitulate it, then we are left unhealed. The passing on of this kind of humanity by Mary is the basis of our redemption.
Photios
Here is a question to consider.
Is it possible to have concupiscience and be sinless? What are we to make of John the Baptists parents in Scripture if not?
Further, I wonder why when we have a doctrine that is universally attested did Rome pull back from affirming it? Just look at the material around Jugie who practically wrote the statement on the Assumption. The far more universally attested to teaching that Mary died is not affirmed by Rome. In fact, popes and scholars jostled the evidence to get around it or at times scoffed at the tradition that the Theotokos in fact died.
WHY?
And even admitting the bulk of the article above, I am not clear why an teaching defined in opposition to another teaching implies that the teaching defined or “hardened” is improper. Such was the case with lots of teachings of Rome, are they now suspect on those grounds as well? This is certainly the “feel” the article conveys.
Karen, Edward, et al,
Karen’s addiction analogy is apt, but pushed in the wrong direction. Edward was right to object that the same line of reasoning would apply to Christ’s humanity. It would and by reductio would be shown to be false. But it is not MAry’s sinlessness and lack of corruption which would dehumanize her since humanity isn’t characterized by sin. RAther it would be problematic since it would imply that personal righteousness could be had apart from human activity of the will. And that lends credence to predestinarianism (grace subverts nature) but also Protestant views of justification (grace is extrinsic to nature). The worry then is that her theosis is not an achievement appropriate to her qua a human person.
Christ on the other hand is not a human person. While he is the source of his holiness, it is not an achievement for him since he never began to be good. Sourcehood is the fundamental worry I think operative in Karen’s analogy and this is why Palamas in his homilies on the Theotokos speaks of her “triumph” over the passions.
TChan 100,
Why should God give that kind of grace to all? The answer is fairly simple, because evil is evil and it is not part of God’s intention. Love and Goodness simply go beyond questions of entitlement and rights and what is due. When my child suffers from cancer, my *natural* reaction is not a concern about rights, but what is good. Is God good? is far more profound than is God in the right? If God could have prevented this mess without inhibiting freedom and moral responsibility, then theodicies and defenses like Plantinga’s are going to be useless to stave off Atheism. Personally, I have already had experiece of the Ogre God of rights when I was a Calvinist. I am not interested in worshipping morally deficient deities.
As for her particular role, had there been no fall, there still would have been an incarnation and a theotokos. Sin does not define grace. The devil’s got nothin’ on Jesus.
James G,
Mark Bonocore’s comments regarding Chrysostom could not be more wrong. Chrysostom could read the NT in Greek, something Augustine couldn’t do till significantly later in life.
I think Chrysostom and the other fathers got St. Paul’s teaching of sin right, even prior to Pelagianism. The correspondence between Cyril and Augustine shows this-there was an article in Augustinian Studies about one or two issues back this year on this point.
To think that the entire east was bereft of understanding of sin till Augustine is not only contradicted by the facts but is implausible on its face.
First, “Greek” is rather vague. The empire consisted of lots of different nationalities so to speak who had a more or less common language.
Second, Bonocore doesn’t seem to realize that there is a western tradition of deification at the same time and Augustine is a chief witness to it so the contrast he wishes to draw is simply untenable. Further the entire appeal to development regarding the Pelagian controversy is question begging.
Third, plenty of Catholic scholars recognize that Chrysostom thought she did sin.
Edward,
I don’t tihnk the Nestorians could make thea argument that the term is absent in their theological tradition and therefore not of the apostolic depost. The ancient rule witnessesd to in Tertullian and passed on in St. Ireneaus is concerning a teaching found in one see but not in the others as a test for innovation.
Further, their “tradition” follows Theodore of Mopsuestia’s obviously philosophically and theologically problematic exegetical committments, which ironically actually anticipate Protestant exegetical distinctives.
Photios Jones, in connexion with the development of doctrine, says: “The kind of devlopment that I have in mind is simply in precise and consistent use of theological vocabulary that is being used to describe the same reality, but I do not admit of new conceptual content to be added to the prior understanding in order to tease out new meaning.”
This is unclear as it stands, but it must be pointed out that *statements* of doctrine will change and develop as a conceptual framework develops. New concepts may be developed which enable new statements to be made about a given body of belief. It does not follow from this that the original body of belief has been added-to, but only that development in the conceptual framework has allowed more precise things to be said about it.
For example, Aristotle may have proposed a valid syllogism. Whitehead (for example) in the C20 could demonstrate its validity using some form of predicate calculus (i.e. with certain extra theoretical glue). It does not follow that Whitehead has revealed anything “extra” to what Aristotle originally pointed out, or that some logical “novelty” was perpetrated that in any way altered or added to Aristotle’s original logical insight.
To say that new conceptual material cannot constitute a valid development of doctrine is to misunderstand the basis of conceptual development and to mistake the content of what is revealed with the human tools we use to express it.
Why should God give that kind of grace to all? The answer is fairly simple, because evil is evil and it is not part of God’s intention.
The Divine Goodness does not necessitate egalitarianism on God’s part–He loves all and desires the salvation of all, but love does not require that He give the same to all.
TChan,
Is God good if he can save all or rather prevent evil in the first place but doesn’t, if the same ends can be reached without it? Certainly God doesn’t need evil to bring about good ends. God doesn’t need a fall to become incarnate.
St. Basil seems to me to be right when he writes,
“But why did we not have sinlessness in our structure, one may ask, so that the will to sin would not exist in us? Because indeed it is not when your household slaves are in bonds that you consider them well disposed, but when you seem them willingly fulfill your wishes. Accordingly, God does not love what is constrained but what is accomplished out of virtue. And virtue comes into being out of free choice and not out of constraint. But free choice depends on what is up to us. And what is up to us is self determined. Accordingly, the one who finds fault with the Creator for not fashioning us by nature sinless is no different from one who prefers the nonrational nature to the rational, and what lacks motion and impulse to what has free choice and activity.
St. Basil the Great, That God is not the cause of Evil, p. 74
But given the IC, that answer is not available it seems. And if that or something like it is not at hand, then I can’t really see any plausible answer to the problem of evil. Compatibilistic accounts in my judgment just make it worse.
Mr. Robinson–I’d prefer not to get into an involved discussion with you about free will. If I remember correctly, that’s been done before elsewhere.
That aside, how would you answer this? Could Christ as man sin? If not, why not?
Oh, and I know it is a part of Tradition that Christ is without sin, but what sort of theological explanation would you give for this?
T. Chan,
Perhaps you didn’t know, but we’ve both written extensively on that very question, though it is a very good one. I address it in my paper on Maximus and Perry does it in an apologetic type paper called ‘Anglicans in Exile.’ I think it would be helpful to look at those to get a developed understanding of where we are coming from so as to move the discussion forward.
Photios
“Mr. Robinson–I’d prefer not to get into an involved discussion with you about free will. If I remember correctly, that’s been done before elsewhere.
That aside, how would you answer this? Could Christ as man sin? If not, why not?”
Also, that question can’t be answered without discussing Free Choice in a Christological context.
Photios
“But it is not MAry’s sinlessness and lack of corruption which would dehumanize her since humanity isn’t characterized by sin. RAther it would be problematic since it would imply that personal righteousness could be had apart from human activity of the will. And that lends credence to predestinarianism (grace subverts nature) but also Protestant views of justification (grace is extrinsic to nature). The worry then is that her theosis is not an achievement appropriate to her qua a human person.”
Perry,
It may well be that Catholic theology has, at times, made it seem as though Mary’s exceptional holiness was “thrust” upon her in some way, as though her free consent was not involved. Perhaps the reason for this is that Catholic apologetics on this issue usually emphasizes the idea of God’s special action with regard to Mary rather than Mary’s cooperation with that action. Nevertheless, I don’t think that the Catholic teaching is incompatible with an emphasis on synergy. The doctrine of the IC is intended to uphold the purity of the Blessed Virgin at the beginning of her existence. It does not imply that she did not need to continually cooperate with God’s grace in order to grow in holiness. On the contrary, we would hold that she not only cooperated with God’s grace, but she cooperated fully and perfectly with it at each moment of her life.
Nor do I think that one needs to hold to unconditional predestination in order to believe in the IC. As I stated in an earlier post, the reason for God’s special gifts to some individuals can be viewed as a result of his foreknowledge. So, He intervened directly in the conversion of Saul precisely because He foreknew that Saul would correspond to the grace conferred. The same with the Blessed Virgin.
Just to add a bit to the conversation, I recently came upon the following excerpt from Vladimir Lossky’s “The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church”:
“The dogma of the immaculate conception is foreign to the Eastern tradition, which does not wish to separate the Holy Virgin from the descendants of Adam upon whom the fault of the first parents weighs. Nevertheless, sin acting as a force in her nature, and as impurity could find no place in her. St. Gregory Palamas in his homily on the Presentation to the temple, explains this sanctity of the virgin by the successive purifications which have taken place in the nature of her ancestors, as well as in her own nature from the moment of her conception. She was not holy in virtue of a privilege, of an exemption common to all humanity, but because she has been kept from all taint of sin though without any impairment of her liberty. On the contrary, it was above all an expression of her liberty, and of the human response to the will of God.”
Though Lossky here denies the dogma of the immaculate conception, I am nevertheless struck by these words: “sin acting as a force in her nature, and as impurity could find no place in her.” This, it seems to me, is wholly in tune with the spirit of the defined dogma of the immaculate conception. Remember that the IC dogma states that the Blessed Virgin was preserved from all “stain of original sin.” This would remove from her any kind of impurity or any kind of hold that sin might have on her. It does not mean, however, that she is not a descendant of Adam who suffers from the conditions of the Fall as do all others, e.g., physical suffering, corruption, and death. Perhaps I have misunderstood Lossky, but it seems to me that he holds to something very close to IC, but understood within the framework of Eastern theology.
Ed
“Nor do I think that one needs to hold to unconditional predestination in order to believe in the IC.”
I don’t think so either, but it isn’t hard to move in that direction if God can create you in a “state of grace.” The IC might not explicitly be an example of unconditional election, but it is an example of gratia irresistibilis. Unless on pains of Origenism where she was “virtuous” prior to being embodied, there was no co-operative will in God making her in a “state of grace.”
Photios
How can one inherit the corruption (the conditions of the Fall) of humanity and be exempt from Original Sin? If Original Sin caused Adam *to* Fall, then to be exempt from Original Sin is to be without the Fall and its conditions.
Photios
Photios,
The idea of gratia irresistibilis was rejected by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in its description of the justification of an adult sinner. While grace is prevenient, man can still resist it. Nevertheless, I don’t think you’ve made the case that the IC is an example of irresistible grace. It is indeed a special grace given at the moment of conception but it had to be ratified by the Blessed Virgin later on, just as we all have to ratify the grace of our baptism. If you argue that it is irresistible because it is given without her consent then, it seems to me, you have to show in what manner consent is given in the case of infant baptism. We’ve had this conversation before and I don’t think you’ve been particularly persuasive so far in that regard. On the other hand, Lossky’s description of the teaching of Gregory Palamas is, I think, enlightening:
“St. Gregory Palamas in his homily on the Presentation to the temple, explains this sanctity of the virgin by the successive purifications which have taken place in the nature of her ancestors, as well as in her own nature from the moment of her conception.”
As I read this, it would seem that Gregory would locate the synergy in Mary’s ancestors who were successively purified through their cooperation with grace in such a manner as to prepare for the birth of the Virgin. She also was successively purified from the moment of her conception. One could argue that synergy is involved in the whole process up to the moment of the conception of the Virgin and, following that conception, the synergy continued in the person of the Blessed Virgin herself. I was rather delighted to see this in the quotation from Lossky as it was an idea that I, quite independently, had brought forth in our previous discussion of this issue in Michael Liccione’s blog.
“How can one inherit the corruption (the conditions of the Fall) of humanity and be exempt from Original Sin? If Original Sin caused Adam *to* Fall, then to be exempt from Original Sin is to be without the Fall and its conditions.”
This is rather confusing to me. The original sin that caused Adam to fall is not the “sin” we inherit. Rather, we inherit the consequences of Adam’s sin, i.e., both spiritual and physical death. We are not guilty of Adam’s personal sin, though we are, in some mysterious sense, implicated in it. That’s why we can say that we are truly fallen even though none of us were ever previously personally in possession of that from which we fell. The immediate result for each one of us of this mysterious association with Adam’s sin is spiritual death. And the consequence of spiritual death is physical death. Now in God’s providential ordering of things, He has seen fit to deliver us from spiritual death (by means of the grace of rebirth in baptism) without immediately delivering us from physical death and suffering. This is the order of redemption. Anyone who is redeemed in the temporal order is redeemed in this manner, i.e., from spiritual death first and from physical death only at the time of the resurrection of the body. Our Lady, since she is among the redeemed, is no exception.
If you wish to define original sin in us as including both spiritual death and the other conditions of the fall then any exemption from any of the conditions of the fall would entail exemption from original sin, in which case, since, as the majority of Fathers taught, our Lady delivered Christ free from labour pains, she would, ipso fact, be exempt from original sin.
Ed
Wasn’t what shocked the Pharisees and others was Christ forgiving sins, ( i.e; spiritual healing) rather than just physical healing?
Ed,
Synergy and freedom are not co-extensive. Augustine was a synergist with respect to justification, but that didn’t make him a libertarian with respect to free will. The question is not whether the Theotokos needed to continue in co-operation, but what the nature of the freedom that that co-operation was predicated upon that concerns me.
From my point of view I can’t see a big difference in principle between predestination to glory and the IC, except one of scope. And the quasi Molinist line won’t work either because it just moves the question back to the question of truth makers for divine knowledge, which will move us back into some form of determinism.
I am quite familiar with St. Palamas’ thoughts on the theotokos. The question is not sinlessness per se, but the relation of freedom to righteousness.
Tchan,
Why ask me to answer a question that requires a discussion of free will?
But to answer you directly, no Christ as a divine person cannot sin, either using his divine will or human will.This does not imply that his powers of choice are bereft of libertarian freedom. The inability to sin would only imply as much if the choice were between good and evil with the good as a simple object of choice. But since I reject absolute divine simplicity, the good is not simple and so one can be unable to sin and still fulfill the alternative possibilities condition on free will.
Christ then as a divine person never begins to do good things and so he never is in a position where his nature and person need to be fixed via habituation as was the case with our first parents. This is why their fall was possible and his was not. The same apparatus explains God’s freedom in creation and redemption and the free will of the saints in heaven. This is why I keep saying this stuff is all tied together.
The doctrine of the IC is intended to uphold the purity of the Blessed Virgin at the beginning of her existence. It does not imply that she did not need to continually cooperate with God’s grace in order to grow in holiness. On the contrary, we would hold that she not only cooperated with God’s grace, but she cooperated fully and perfectly with it at each moment of her life.
That’s certainly what I was always taught, even by those old ’50s-vintage nuns. Mary started out the gratuitous gift of perfect purity and sinlessness, sure, but it wasn’t an easy ride from then on; she cooperated with Grace at every instant of her existence.. Anf the going got tough; it wasn’t a cake-walk for her. Au contraire. That’s why, while we affirm Sola Gratia in her case (as in our own), we also recognize her admirable and singular meritoriousness. ‘Tis a paradox, like so much in our Faith.
Re 126;
I’m not following the logic.
How does “having” grace result in “pre-destination”?
How does grace prevent freedom?
I thought that grace results in freedom.
How could the Theotokos say Yes if she were conditioned by passions, desires, and compulsions?
Perhaps it might be better to consider the topic from a contemplative perspective rather than from a logical one.
For the record I agree with Perry that Molinism is not part of the answer – either on the IC or on the wider question of predestination to glory; it seems to me that it is simply absurd to imagine that God’s decisions are made on the basis of what might have been. This conviction is a relic of the strict Augustinianism of my youth.
Now that I think that Augustine must be wrong on the question of an irresistible pre-motion leading the elect to glory, I still want to say that salvation/deification, whether eschatological (glory) or in via (grace) comes only from the divine initiative, whereas the non-realisation of this divine plan for all comes only from the creaturely will (whether of men or angels). Hence I still consider myself Augustinian (though not a strict one). I thus have no problem with the idea of the IC in se, although the question of why and how a previously free opinion became a dogma of my Church does have its problems for me.
I have yet to grapple successfully with the problematic of how human freedom and grace are articulated existentially -but this is hardly surprising since the entire history of western theology has not succeeded in thrashing this out, as the result of the Congregatio de Auxiliis so amply demonstrated. I believe that the byzantine theologians with their notion of synergy have something to offer on this, and that their contribution has not been taken seriously enough by Catholic theologians in the past (one of the major articles on the subject of grace and predestination in the DTC – I don’t have it to hand to check which one – dismisses the idea of synergy in one line!) However, I do get the impression that Perry and Photius are trying to make the notion of synergy do more work than in reality it can, by making it a peg on which to hang the whole of theology. As I have said already: I am suspicious of theories which claim to reduce complex problems to a supposedly luminous one-line simplicity. I think that taking predestination from the realm of divine knowledge to that of divine will is an example of such over-confidence; refusing to conceive of the presence of grace before the human consent which it elicits seems to me to be another.
I am however happy to be confronting the ideas of Perry and Photius in this way because they force me to reflect further and deeper on the doctrines concerned. To come back to the point of departure: I think we Catholics should do more thinking around the way in which Mary’s constant consent to the grace she was always given is an essential corollary to the acknowledgement of the presence of that grace from the begnning of her human existence. I do not, however, see the existence of a chronological as well as a conceptual posteriority of that response as problematic in se – and it seems to me that our fundamental disagreement lies here.
“However, I do get the impression that Perry and Photius are trying to make the notion of synergy do more work than in reality it can, by making it a peg on which to hang the whole of theology. As I have said already: I am suspicious of theories which claim to reduce complex problems to a supposedly luminous one-line simplicity.”
Fr. Paul,
In all due respect, we’re trying to take the explicit teachings of the 6th Council of Constantinople very seriously and the theology that actually made that council possible.
Please take seriously the last paragraph of my paper where I footnote Pelikan and his observation that Western Christendom failed to truly appropriate the delineations of the 6th Ecumenical Council in their subsequent on going debates on predestination that have never ceased til this day. Why has a question that seemed to plague the East just as much, up until Maximus, seem to finally die off and then satisfaction on that question reached and never really bothered with anymore? I think that in itself is enough to give any theologian or historical writer some pause…
It’s not so much that we are building theology on synergy, but trying to answer a question (i.e. predestination) from a Christological context and using the text and teachings of Maximus the Confessor as a springboard for that discussion. Maximus’ doctrine requires a wholesale rejection of absolute divine simplicity (the good as absolute unity) in an Origenist context, Eastern style (vis-a-vis Augustine).
Photios
Evagrius,
The issue is can a person be created “virtuous.” Does the IC imply being in a state of grace or not from the moment of creation? Was Adam created with “original righteousness” the donum superadditum or not? Can virtue be had without the motion of the will or not?
We already believe that the divine logoi (the energies of God) subsist in each person *naturally*, Theotokos and everyone et al. That isn’t the problem as we see it. The problem is does the IC imply a person being already virtuous and in a “state of grace” from the first moment of her existence?
Ed,
The issue of infant baptism we’ve already disentangled and their are several ways to answer it. First, Perry disentangled what infants receive, via Palamas, in baptism vs. Adults. The image is recapitulated but the likeness requires the motion of the will. Adults receive both, infants receive the first on Palamas’ gloss. Even if one doesn’t take my line that infants can personally co-operate with grace, to whatever limited extent, Perry’s answer via Palamas fully answers your tu quoque of the problem vis-a-vis the IC and gratia irresistibilis. I’m aware that Trent condemns the doctrine against the Calvinists, the question is the logical entailments of the IC itself and whether that answer undermines the condemnation in question. And that’s what I have a real problem with.
Photios
Ed,
One more thing,
“The original sin that caused Adam to fall is not the “sin” we inherit. ”
What is original sin then? Concupiscence? Or absence of righteousness?
If the latter, isn’t that exactly what you inherit? Isn’t the *fall* from grace the cause of Adam’s mortality? What does Rom. 12 say?
If the theotokos lacks the seperation from grace and nature, that was constitutive of Adam’s integrity, how can she inherit mortality?
I’m just trying to give you an internal critique. It’s not apparent to me where this is going wrong.
Photios
Perhaps it might be better to consider the topic from a contemplative perspective rather than from a logical one.
And do I hear an Amen? Amen! Preach it, brother!
These tortured attempts at logical hairsplitting strike me as rather, well, Calvinist. (Wasn’t it Chesterton or someone who said that logic, taken to extremes, is the province of madmen?)
I’m with evagrius. The heart has its reasons, which the reason knows nothing of.
O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
Diane
As I have said already: I am suspicious of theories which claim to reduce complex problems to a supposedly luminous one-line simplicity.
Sounds like a very healthy suspicion to me, Father. :)
Diane,
It’s quite odd of those that rebuff logic when the Triadological model that is definitional for you by the Council of Florence says that the Persons of the Trinity are distinguished on the basis of opposing relations. Think about those implications.
I think what we are doing is illustrative, and assuming the principles of the opponent to give an internal critique. Where we fail to give an internal critique, we offer our opponent to show where such and such does not follow or mistaken.
Logic and dialectic plays a significantly different role in Orthodoxy, this is because Orthodoxy starts from a very different set of assumptions. In short, Orthodox theology rejects “natural theology” as understood by most scholastics and that human reason can make dogmatic claims based on the surroundings of a fallen world.
Photios
Photios,
In defence of Diane’s objections, I am convinced you do not understand just how obscure and opaque your reasoning is likely to strike a lay reader. Just let me parse your last message as an example.
“It’s quite odd of those that rebuff logic when the Triadological model that is definitional for you by the Council of Florence says that the Persons of the Trinity are distinguished on the basis of opposing relations. Think about those implications.”
My first reaction to this was to scratch my head and ponder how this observation could have any bearing on the subject at hand (IC). If there is a connection, I can’t see it. It then struck me that this might not be in reference to the IC at all, but in defence of logic in theology. Even if it is, I am not sure the observation is indicative of anything, let alone probative.
“I think what we are doing is illustrative, and assuming the principles of the opponent to give an internal critique. Where we fail to give an internal critique, we offer our opponent to show where such and such does not follow or mistaken.”
To be frank, I almost never recognize your portrayals of the beliefs or “principles” of Western (Latin?) Catholics. I also often get the impression that you do not ascribe to specific terms the same meaning Westerners would. I note your use of typically Protestant verbiage, but you never quote from the catechism, for example. These factors lead me to believe that your understanding of what Western Catholics really believe or are committed to may be less than perfect. To this extent, no matter how worthy your stated gaol, you may not in practice be able to achieve it through this approach. You simply are not speaking a language most Catholics would recognize, let alone understand.
“Logic and dialectic plays a significantly different role in Orthodoxy, this is because Orthodoxy starts from a very different set of assumptions.”
And what role, exactly, are you assuming that logic and dialectic play in Catholicism? You seem to forget that Catholics do not see their faith as one inferred parsimoniously from a few first principles, but as a complex and comprehensive whole transmitted down to them as a package from the apostles through the Church. One does not reason one’s way to faith. Scholasticism and Augustinian theology may be of some use in seeing interconnections between various aspects of the faith or in drawing out their implications, but they simply do not create for Catholics, as you seem to imply, *new* beliefs or new bases for beliefs.
“In short, Orthodox theology rejects “natural theology” as understood by most scholastics and that human reason can make dogmatic claims based on the surroundings of a fallen world.”
And who exactly claims to be able to “make dogmatic claims based on the surroundings of a fallen world”? Is this a real claim for which you have references is this yet another tendentious ascription to scholastics or Catholics in general?
Photios,
Further, and to illustrate a bit the futility of attacking the IC through a critique of Western theological methodology or of inferences drawn from it, Catholics are free to believe that much of the methodology used by Augustine and Thomas is completely unconvincing drivel.
In brief, Catholics do not believe in the IC because they hold to a particular understanding of original sin. They believe in the IC because the Church teaches them, preuves suffisantes à l’appui, that the IC forms an integral part of the seamless deposit of the faith.
You can argue with the Church’s authority to so teach; you can argue with the pertinence of the Patristic sources cited; you can argue with the Augustinian theology through which the doctrine was proclaimed and defined. None of this is in any way going to affect what faithful Catholics believe.
Now if you want to argue that Orthodoxy cannot treat the IC as binding, that’s fine. But you don’t do this by applying an “internal critique” to Catholicism. And if you want to claim (as you seem to come close to doing) that the IC per se is incompatible with Orthodoxy, then you should be spending more of your time explaining away in a more convincing manner the views of Orthodox theologians and saints who appear to believe otherwise.
Hello Father Paul,
Photios copied the last of your paragraph, but the first part is what jumped out at me,
“Now that I think that Augustine must be wrong on the question of an irresistible pre-motion leading the elect to glory, I still want to say that salvation/deification, whether eschatological (glory) or in via (grace) comes only from the divine initiative, whereas the non-realisation of this divine plan for all comes only from the creaturely will (whether of men or angels).”
It is very nice and humble to credit God with all the good and man with all the bad, but underneath what you want to say is the reality that your position holds that God denies grace to some and gives it to others, which is not so nice.
But if everyone is in an unfulfilled state of grace through being one with Christ’s Incarnational humanity (nature), then responding to what is innate and active upon everyone puts the gnomic human will in perspective as being able to choose according to it’s own graced nature or according to its inherited habit of a tendency towards sin. My own position (hopefully Orthodox) is that through Mary’s geneology of people acquiring a habit and thus raising their children in a habit of virtue, and thus surrounding Mary with these disciplines, included in her entry into the Temple, as well as her personal inclination towards God, she was more fit to become one with and filled with Grace.
This way God is generous and loving toward all, and those who choose according to their Nature are seen as normal and those who continue in sin against their nature are truly abnormal. This view keeps God from being selective and lets you continue with your wish that not being full of grace remains the responsibility of individual persons.
“My first reaction to this was to scratch my head and ponder how this observation could have any bearing on the subject at hand (IC). If there is a connection, I can’t see it.”
Diane’s objections was that I was being too “logical” in my evaluation of the IC. The methodological approach that are in the standard textbook of Catholic teaching of say the Summa Theologiae or of other writers that do “natural theology,” is illustratitve to make my point. That they don’t follow out *all* their implications is neither here nor there to me really. I assume the principles of dialectical discourse and rhetoric here to show the futility of not only the method but of the implications of the doctrine as a reductio ad absurdum.
“To be frank, I almost never recognize your portrayals of the beliefs or “principles” of Western (Latin?) Catholics. I also often get the impression that you do not ascribe to specific terms the same meaning Westerners would. I note your use of typically Protestant verbiage, but you never quote from the catechism, for example. These factors lead me to believe that your understanding of what Western Catholics really believe or are committed to may be less than perfect.”
What protestant verbiage? And what’s wrong with Protestants? Why do you demonize them?
Does Catholic doctrine entail belief in the donum superadditum and original righteousness or not? Are these beliefs not attributable to Catholic beliefs? Of course they are. So lets move forward with the argument.
If this is a refutation, this is quite a hollow and superficial one. But anyhow, I’ll proceed on..
“And what role, exactly, are you assuming that logic and dialectic play in Catholicism?”
That the intellect can grasp God and certain theological questions adequately by the use of unaided reason, and thereby become dogmatic. Certain doctrines based on natural theology became theological dogma.
“And who exactly claims to be able to “make dogmatic claims based on the surroundings of a fallen world”? Is this a real claim for which you have references is this yet another tendentious ascription to scholastics or Catholics in general?”
Try divine simplicity. Try Scotus’ syllogisms that Mary “ought” to be free from sin. These are arguments based on natural theology, not on Tradition. What about Bernard? Why isn’t his anxiety and alarm of the doctrine relieved here?
“and to illustrate a bit the futility of attacking the IC through a critique of Western theological methodology or of inferences drawn from it”
How am I to do an internal critique if not by way of “Western theological methodology” ? Should I use the principles of Hindu?
“you can argue with the pertinence of the Patristic sources cited”
There is no patristic basis. The closest thing that even comes close to it is Ambrose in Expositio in Psalmum XCVIII, Patrologia Latina 15, 1599D, but even there Ambrose gives no temporal referent.
“None of this is in any way going to affect what faithful Catholics believe.”
Which leaves vacuous and indefensible any reason to believe the doctrine. In essence, Cathocism hangs its hat on authority regardless of what Tradition says and thereby supplants that Tradition. Such couldn’t be anymore offensive to thinking Christians.
“And if you want to claim (as you seem to come close to doing) that the IC per se is incompatible with Orthodoxy, then you should be spending more of your time explaining away in a more convincing manner the views of Orthodox theologians and saints who appear to believe otherwise.”
Different thesis, but I shall expand.
The question of Mary’s personal sinlessness is what contemporary Orthodoxy considers to be an open question, and a pious theologoumenon. Contemporary Orthodoxy has soundly rejected the IC and the western captivity of Russian theology on the question that seemed to affirm it. St. John Maximovitch stated this in his book, The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God, siting Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov states:
“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of the life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death.” (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God.”) “A stranger to any fall into sin” (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the I I 8th Psalm), “She was not a stranger to sinful temptations.” “God alone is without sin” (St. Ambrose, same source), “while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.”
Though Palamas an others might regard her as being personally sinless, they would soundly reject the doctrine of the IC because it implies that a person can be in a “state of grace” (i.e. virtuous) apart from the motion of the will.
Instead of complaining about *me,* how about taking up the argument and adding something to the discussion that is meaningful. Can you do this please?
Photios
“The problem is does the IC imply a person being already virtuous and in a “state of grace” from the first moment of her existence?”
“a person can be in a “state of grace” (i.e. virtuous) apart from the motion of the will.”
I’m not sure how you can get a connection between the two, ( virtue and will), or how you can separate them.
There’s a tradition of the Theotokos being the Queen of contemplatives.
I think that the Theotokos was a contemplative from conception onwards, not by nature but by grace, a gift of God rather than her own existential property.
Being “naturally” contemplative, she was always virtuous, always following the will of God.
To put it in another way, Mary did not have a very assertive, selfish “ego” but had, instead, a very attentive “nous” or awareness of God’s immanence/ transcendence.
That “nous”, which is a state, not an essence or object or even property, is what enabled her to say yes.
However, being in that state of contemplative awareness did not remove her from the effects of original sin, namely suffering and death.
Both you and Perry are trying far too hard to assert something that most Orthodox would feel uncomfortable with.
The IC may not be how Orthodox describe the uniqueness of the Theotokos but it is not completely foreign.
I feel that it’s the same with what you call “natural theology”. I find the Fathers to be eminent “natural theologians” pointing to common everyday experiences that, with a reflective effort, are pointers to deeper truths.
“To this extent, no matter how worthy your stated gaol, you may not in practice be able to achieve it through this approach. You simply are not speaking a language most Catholics would recognize, let alone understand.”
Furthermore Michael, I’ll grant you this point partially, though I do not have in mind the majority of the theologically illiterate that comprise much of laity. I think folks like Fr. Paul here “get it,” but reject what is the full impact of my statements on the theology of Maximus the Confessor and synergism. So, he disagrees, and I can respect that.
The question is back to the basics, can you take in and appropriate the full impact of Maximus and the 6th Ecumenical Council? I personally think not per Rome’s dogmatic commitments, which is why Perry and I have come here to discuss the issue.
Photios
“The IC may not be how Orthodox describe the uniqueness of the Theotokos but it is not completely foreign.”
There is nothing UNOrthodox about my statements. I’m open either way to her being personally sinless or that she had certain faults that Chrysostom, Origen, Basil, and Cyril as they positively attributed to her these things. I really don’t think it Christologically matters either way. Where a doctrine threatens Christology and Triadology, then my alarm is raised. I take the Theotokos’ immaculateness and spotlessness in a very positive sense: in her personal formation of habit. Whether or not she had some personal failings, I could honestly careless. People could debate such a notion until Kingdom Come.
I oppose the IC, because it is an example of Monergism, i.e. anthropological monotheletism. It is Christologically wrong in my opinion.
Photios
Andrea Elizabeth
thanks for your comment. I am interested in your outlook. Like Photius’ it subverts the distinction between grace and nature with which I am used to operating and I intend to take time to reflect and read a little more about that.
I must, however, take issue with one thing you write, viz the assertion that: “underneath what you want to say is the reality that your position holds that God denies grace to some and gives it to others”.
I was in fact meaning to assert precsely the contrary. The position you assert is certainly that of Augustine; when I said that I am no longer a strict Augustinian, I meant it to be understood that this is precisely where I part company with him. In the paragraph you quote I think that this is at least implicit: for Augustine, the loss of some is directly willed by God because he gives to some iresistible graces which he denies to others, from initial conversion to final perseverance.
I can no longer adhere to this position. It became untenable for me when, one sunny morning, I formulated explicitey a thought which had been haunting me for years as un unuttered intuition: what the post-Thomas scloastics called “sufficient grace” (in order to distinguish it from “efficacious grace”) is not in fact sufficient for anything. Allthough neither Augustine nor Thomas use these terms, I saw that my reasons for rejecting them entailed an unravelling of the strict Augustinian theory. Allthough it is not our place to impose upon God an obligation to be “nice” (or “just” or anything else according to our human understanding of those terms) we have to take him at his word. Aquinas has to say that the NT assertion that God wills everyone to be saved has to be qualified by saying that he wills “all manner of men” to be saved. For me as for you this just won’t wash.
However, if we are to talk about afficacious and indeed irresistible grace, and articulate their relation, then we must needs distinguish. Photius wants to say that if freedom is to be preserved then no grace can be irresistible. I would agree that freedom would be meaningless if ALL graces (whether in the case of one individual or many or all) were irresistible; but I do not think that it would be so if there were to be one (say initial) grace which was so. So I do not think that the fact that an infant receives an irresistible grace at Baptism constitutes a freedom-destroying necessity to respond to that grace as he or she becomes capable of doing so. And neither would the IC which, in the case of the Theotokos, merely brings forward the moment of such a gracing to the earliest possible one.
Now I will willingly concede that am dealing with a notion of the “supernatural” which Photius rejects under the term “donum superadditum”, and which you too seem not to accept. I do not find his arguments convincing – allthough I have observed his injunction to take his arguments seriously and will continue to do so. It would be disconcerting for a Catholic thelogian to discover that the entire theological tradition of his Church has gone astray in accepting this tradition, and enshrining it is conciliar and magisterial acts such as the condemnation of Michael Baius. It may conceivably nevertheless be the case. But as far as I have understood the Greek Fathers, the least we can say is that they do not form a consensus in favour of your arguments. Photius’ paper on Maximus has not succeeded in convincing me either that this is the only possible interpretation of the Confessor, nor if it were would the teaching of one Father be sufficient to command our adherence unless it could be shown to be conformable to the consensus of the others. I do not dispose right now of the time or the ressources to embark on a comprehensive survey of the evidence; while awaiting a future opportunity to do so, I am trying to keep an open mind.
Photios,
“Diane’s objections was that I was being too “logical” in my evaluation of the IC. The methodological approach that are in the standard textbook of Catholic teaching of say the Summa Theologiae or of other writers that do “natural theology,” is illustratitve to make my point. That they don’t follow out *all* their implications is neither here nor there to me really. I assume the principles of dialectical discourse and rhetoric here to show the futility of not only the method but of the implications of the doctrine as a reductio ad absurdum.”
And what you have failed to appreciate from Diane’s observation is that her belief in the IC doesn’t rest on a formal theological “methodology,” whether scholastic, Augustinian, or “natural”. It would seem you hold simple faith in contempt.
You are confusing a statement of faith with the arguments some offer in defence of that faith. Rejecting the latter need have no impact on the former. Your assumption is that one comes to the IC only through Augustinian theology. This is not an assumption Catholics share, so this argument doesn’t get you anywhere.
“What protestant verbiage? And what’s wrong with Protestants? Why do you demonize them?”
LOL. I don’t demonize them. You are the one who is claiming to be attempting an “internal critique” of Catholicism, however. An “internal” critique that sounds like it comes from a Protestant isn’t going to strike many Catholics as “internal”.
“Does Catholic doctrine entail belief in the donum superadditum and original righteousness or not?”
My simple answer, and I stand to be corrected, is that Catholic “doctrine” certainly doesn’t necessarily entail belief that openeness to God is inherent to human nature. Indeed, it strikes me that most Catholics would argue against such an understanding of “original righteousness”. As to the Golden Briddle argument that original righteousness was a divine gift independent of human nature, it’s speculation so far as I can tell. Again, I could be wrong, but I do not see either position as Catholic dogma.
“Are these beliefs not attributable to Catholic beliefs? Of course they are. So lets move forward with the argument.”
Not so fast. Just because they can be attributable to *some* Catholics doesn’t make them dogma. You can’t just assume blithely that they have been dogmatized and then use them to undermine what *has* explicitly been dogmatized. I suppose you could operate from the reverse and argue that the IC precludes certain other non dogmatized beliefs, but that’s another matter altogether.
“If this is a refutation, this is quite a hollow and superficial one. But anyhow, I’ll proceed on..”
It is most explicitly *not* a refutation. I am merely pointing out to you that at best you will have shown that one particular use of one particular speculative theological methodology may have been faulty. Belief in the essence of the IC by Catholics is independent of any given methodology (though obviously more speculative beliefs relating to the IC, or means of expressing it, may not be). This, in my view, is the essential truth you have yet to grapple with.
“That the intellect can grasp God and certain theological questions adequately by the use of unaided reason, and thereby become dogmatic. Certain doctrines based on natural theology became theological dogma.”
Just because you assert that this is so doesn’t make it so. Indeed, I suspect these are propositions (relating to an imputed dogmatism) that I would expect most Catholics to deny as flatly offensive. Perhaps they have currency in anti-Catholic circles, however.
“Try divine simplicity. Try Scotus’ syllogisms that Mary “ought” to be free from sin. These are arguments based on natural theology, not on Tradition. What about Bernard? Why isn’t his anxiety and alarm of the doctrine relieved here?”
Perhaps we have a definitional issue here: “dogma” is normally currently understood among Catholics as relating to teachings definitively to be held by the Church as true. I don’t see “divine simplicity,” “Scotus’ syllogisms” or Bernard’s doubts as falling into this category.
“How am I to do an internal critique if not by way of “Western theological methodology” ? Should I use the principles of Hindu?”
Again, I am just pointing out that an “internal critique”, even if it were truly “internal” would not yield the result you are aiming for.
“Which leaves vacuous and indefensible any reason to believe the doctrine. In essence, Cathocism hangs its hat on authority regardless of what Tradition says and thereby supplants that Tradition. Such couldn’t be anymore offensive to thinking Christians.”
Again, this is not the type of argument a Catholic can be responsive to. Why should your understanding of Tradition prevail over that of the magisterium? Better you drop the “internal critique” approach which isn’t getting you anywhere, and stick to your own personal ddifficulties with IC and put the onus on your opponents to convince you.
“The question of Mary’s personal sinlessness is what contemporary Orthodoxy considers to be an open question, and a pious theologoumenon. Contemporary Orthodoxy has soundly rejected the IC and the western captivity of Russian theology on the question that seemed to affirm it. St. John Maximovitch stated this in his book, The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God, siting Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov states:
“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of the life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death.” (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God.”) “A stranger to any fall into sin” (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the I I 8th Psalm), “She was not a stranger to sinful temptations.” “God alone is without sin” (St. Ambrose, same source), “while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.”
I don’t see any of these quotes (except possibly the second from Ambrose which I would argue is taken out of context) as necessarily incompatible with the Catholic understanding of the IC. That sin may have “manifested” itself in Mary in the form of temptation, for example, (and over which we can only speculate) need not imply that she was ever in a “state of sin” properly defined.
“Though Palamas an others might regard her as being personally sinless, they would soundly reject the doctrine of the IC because it implies that a person can be in a “state of grace” (i.e. virtuous) apart from the motion of the will.”
That’s not an implication. It’s an inference you choose to draw.
“Instead of complaining about *me,* how about taking up the argument and adding something to the discussion that is meaningful. Can you do this please?”
I am not complaining about *you*. I am sure even Diane appreciates your contribution and participation. I am merely trying to get across to you that Catholics do not believe in the IC because they necessarily accept an Augustinian understanding of original sin. They believe it because they are taught it, because they pray it together, and because it strikes them as true. This may strike *you* as “vacuous”, but ask yourself this: why do you believe any of the Christian truths?
Father Paul,
Thanks for your kind reply.
I agree that God does not have to fit our notion of “nice”, I meant it in more of an allegorical way. However when you say,
“Aquinas has to say that the NT assertion that God wills everyone to be saved has to be qualified by saying that he wills “all manner of men” to be saved. For me as for you this just won’t wash.”
I’m not sure why it doesn’t wash for you, but on face value, it does for me. And I’m not sure in what manner Aquinas believes he has to say it. I’m more familiar with what St. Maximus says which seems to me to be unanswered by you all.
I wonder when these different types of graces (irresistible, effacacious, and initial) all got labeled and distinguished from each other, with Augustine? I do not hear grace spoken of that way in my readings of the Eastern Fathers. Therefore I do not believe that infant baptism confers irresistible grace in that sense, but it does enter the baby bodily into the Kingdom of God. If he wants to continue to live there (according to his nature – see St. Maximus) and learn to live a life fitting to it, while being further strengthened by grace in the Church, it’s up to him. The Theotokos obviously did, and since her parents did too (which is why we venerate them), she attained the habit. I believe we consider her presentation into the temple to be a type of baptism as a similar entrance into the Kingdom, whatever her participation in the Jewish ritual cleansing in Mikvehs.
Photios,
Upon reflection there is one observation you made that I think still needs addressing lest it be seen as an uncontroverted truth:
“There is no patristic basis. The closest thing that even comes close to it is Ambrose in Expositio in Psalmum XCVIII, Patrologia Latina 15, 1599D, but even there Ambrose gives no temporal referent.”
I really don’t see how you can just ignore the repeated references to Mary as the “new Eve”. Eve’s conception was immaculate, and Eve before the fall is for the Fathers the typos for Mary in her freedom from any sin. It follows logically and reasonably from this oft repeated patristic analogy that in their understanding, and in the absence of any other clarifying distinction to the contrary, just as Eve was free of concupiscence before the fall so must Mary have been until, like Eve, she should choose to say no to God. Otherwise the analogy loses most of its force. The Patristic witness is clear and unanimous: Mary, while perhaps like Eve not free from temptation, never said no.
Just because the Fathers don’t use the expression “immaculate conception” does not mean that the bulk of them didn’t share the essence of the belief.
You read the Fathers differently, of course, but this is because you *choose* to do so (presumably because you find your own interpretation more convincing). Your reading, however, is not inherently more plausible than that of the magisterium. The key difference with respect to disputing with Catholics is that the magisterium has authority in interpreting Tradition (for Catholics), and you don’t.
Fr. Paul,
Another quote to ponder:
http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/man-predestined-according-to-the-divine-image-of-the-word/
I see real a continuity between Irenaeus and Maximus on predestination in this one.
If it is the divine image in man that is predestined according to Irenaeus (because what DOES in Creation, He DOES in Redemption), what does this categorically mean for as we rigorously pursue the categories of Person and Nature? In other words, biblically, what does this imply about predestination: is it solely a personal property or is it something natural (i.e. implying the Resurection of humanity in Christ by dint of consubstantiality).
I think most folks gloss over predestination and read it in a kind of pagan way, i.e. they assume the biblical writers are importing pagan conceptual notions of predeterminism for a select number of persons, instead of reading the Christological impact of the statment. Eph 1:1-9 are invoked…but…what about v. 10…
Of course I’m “leading the witness” much here…
Photios
“I really don’t see how you can just ignore the repeated references to Mary as the “new Eve”. ”
I’ve already dealt with that. Irenaeus and other Fathers link the type to the formation of habit, i.e. the difference in their personal modes of willing in their choices, they don’t see anything about conceptions. Besides Eve in my view isn’t created “virtuous” or have a fixed habit from the first moment of creation, this is the point of giving her a command by God to link her logos (natural will) with her tropos (mode of willing). I deal with this argument already in my paper. I write:
“Adam did not start out “exercised” in virtue since he is a creature, although his faculty of willing is “naturally” directed towards virtue (either real or apparent according to his mode of willing [tropos]). This was the purpose in giving man such a simple command to obey in the garden. The idea was to fuse Adam’s faculty of willing (logos), naturally directed towards the good, with his personal employment of the will. Once virtue is practiced with one’s hypostatic employment through habit (possibly through more commands and obedience), then Adam would become a morally impeccable agent and be like God unable to sin. But before created agents have exercised the natural virtues, their hypostatic employment of the will (tropos) has a distinct status which Maximus calls the gnomic will:
Gnomie is nothing else than an act of willing in a particular way, in relation to some real or assumed good. (Maximus, Disputation 85, p. 30)
The gnomic will can be defined as the personal employment of the will (tropos) that is not integrated with virtue, that is, “fixed” with the natural faculty of the will directed towards the good (logos). This is why it was possible for Adam created in innocence to sin. Theosis was open to him, but he was not created in theosis: but a state of potential deification. The devil and our first parents sinned by the gnomic will. Since the gnomic will ceases when a created hypostasis is integrated in the natural virtue, we can say that it [gnomie] is accidental to human nature and not essential. Christ lacks this personal ‘mode of willing’ since he is the divine uncreated Logos.” -Synergy in Christ, p. 10
The rest of your post is question begging, because I’m not taking my line of reasoning as being normative, but rather the Chruch’s understanding and appropriation of these questions, that is the Orthodox Church. If find Patristic theology of Orthodoxy far more convincing then the Roman Magisterium, those presup’s are already a given and add little to the discussion in my opinion.
Photios
Gee, I wish you’d spell a little better.
Besides all this, once again you’re veering away from the topic into other areas.
I really wish you’d read Maximus with a bit more humility.
One cannot read him, or for that matter any other patristic source, or, for that matter, many of the scholastics, without undergoing a bit of the practice that they exercised. Then you’d acquire a bit of humility and argue with a bit less self importance.
It’s not all logic you know. Nor is it tossing around bits of patristic commentary like confetti.
Instead of tossing around charges of monoenergism, etc; you should really try to see what’s being pointed to, rather than argue about the pointer.
“Besides all this, once again you’re veering away from the topic into other areas.”
I’m answering questions as they are posed.
“I really wish you’d read Maximus with a bit more humility.”
I really wish you would think more critically.
“One cannot read him, or for that matter any other patristic source, or, for that matter, many of the scholastics, without undergoing a bit of the practice that they exercised.”
I’m sorry this is just nonsense. You need to hold your judgments about me and my spiritual formation. You don’t even know me. So stick to the arguments and not the ad hom’s about what you wish I was.
“Instead of tossing around charges of monoenergism”
If the doctrine implies it, then it should be owned up to as much. Was Barth uncharitable to Calvinists, when he showed reductio that Calvin’s doctrine of predestination implied Arianism, i.e. there was an interposition of a divine attribute of predestination between God [the Father] and Jesus Christ?
Photios
Ad hominem, shmoeminem.
The original article by Fr. Gillet was an irenic article pointing towards common understandings about who the Theotokos is and what she did.
It did not pretend that differences were not there but only that those differences are minor compared to the shared faith in both who she is and what she did as well as the common faith in her Son.
It did not minutely each and ever nuance of the doctrines and teachings concerning her. That was not the point of the article.
Rather it tried to show how both Orthodox and Catholics can still share the same faith while expressing it in different ways. Unity of faith does not imply uniformity.
Now you come along, with your preconceived notions of what Orthodox theology is, preconceptions that are quite open to question, and you insist that “No, there’s nothing in common. Move along. Nothing to see here.”
You can’t see the poetry involved, the mystery involved. The doctrines and teachings are not logical syllogism, nor deductions or propositions derived from Scripture or patristic commentary on Scriptures.
They’re more akin to poetry, to music and art, than they are to logic.
It’s ironic that I find your views to be more a very dry scholasticism, the type often caricatured, than akin to the best of Orthodox theology which is art, music, poetry and beauty.
Further, there’s a vigorous harshness which is antithetical to the best of theology.
The discussion here, before your interruption, was quietly exploring many themes, often hinting at the mystery but never having the hubris to reduce it to syllogism and proof texting.
Sorry…those are my thoughts.
evagrius 129,
That depends on what we mean by freedom. I think it entails alternative possibilities, but someone like Aquinas does not. So for Aquinas or Scotus for example being impeccable parres down freedom to preclude alternative possibilities.
The The theotokos could say yes in such a situation since desires and such do not determine ones actions.
Fr. Paul,
Thanks for the charitable reply. I don’t take myself to be hanging everything on the peg of synergy. If anything it wouldn’t be synergy as such since compatibilists can be synergists. I take myself to be hanging it on Chalcedonian Christology and that is a hill I am willing to die on.
Evagrius,
First, I suspect charity precludes your attempt to put Photios on the couch.
Second, Natural theology is a lot more than learning about God from everyday experiences. It is a specific project.
Photios,
What exactly are you trying to achieve here? Up to now this discussion has been about the IC and not about you, but you seem to be doing your best to change that.
If you really are only interested in discussing matters with trained theologians, perhaps you should look for a site reserved for such discussion, or e-mail the other trained theologians privately.
I am a strong and genuine admirer of simple faith. If you cannot express yourself in a way that someone with simple faith untrained in advanced theology can understand, you have no future as an apologist. The only trained theologian who accepted Christ’s direct word was Paul. I think we are all aware of the rather non intellectual context of this reception. I think this speaks volumes about the need for theological humility.
Christianity is *about* virtue. Humility *is* a virtue. An invitation to exercise more humility even by the most arrogant to the most humble is, no matter how personally galling, an invitation to virtue. If you can only bristle and respond with spleen, then perhaps your Christian theology needs to be rooted in a bit more Christian praxis.
The stated purpose of this site is to highlight, strive and if possible reach genuinely shared understanding. This involves trying to recast the problematic formulations of others in ways we think they will accept and rejoice in. Instead you seem focussed on proving to those who do not interpret things your way that they are wrong.
Waving your hand dismissively and referring others to some “conclusive” treatment you have written elsewhere is just self-indulgence given how amazingly alienating your tone is. Why would anyone *want* to expose themselves to any more of this sort of abuse? It’s not as if your arguments are convincing to those who do not share your beliefs. All your arguments demonstrate is just how few key assumptions you share with Catholics and how little you understand typically Catholic beliefs.
This whole business of an Orthodox trying to use typically Catholic speculative theology to rubbish Catholic doctrine is just too bizarre for me to take seriously.
Getting back to the topic at hand and the spirit of the site, let me set out some simple propositions and questions for discussion. Feel free to engage in a constructive spirit, if you so choose (this invitation is, of course, extended to all).
1. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the 1854 definition was poorly formulated. I say this not because Catholics should view the formulation as inaccurate, but because it was articulated in so narrowly Western terms that its reception by Easterners (Catholic and Orthodox) has been problematic, to say the least. Catholics have to accept that this is a problem and think creatively about how this can be addressed. Orthodox have to put more effort into trying to understand what it is that Catholics are trying to express as important, no matter how poorly or clumsily, and suggest alternative terminology that expresses whatever Orthodoxy can find of value in it.
2. The IC is also very much a second order doctrine. I point this out well knowing that the hierarchy of truths is something Orthodox have difficulty with. The IC may be pious and edifying, but what really does it add to the Christian understanding of the faith? I contrast this with the definition of the Assumption, for example, which at least underlines the concrete reality (as opposed to spiritual symbolism) of the *bodily* resurrection traditional Christians look forward to. Is the acceptance of second order truths advanced by their doctrinal definition, or does definition instead breed resistance? Are there better means of defending and communicating (liturgical praxis) second order truths.
4. On what terms were longstanding doctrinal schisms (both locally and in the universal Church) involving either or both communions healed or overcome in the past, and what can these examples suggest for the IC?
3. The IC was defined at a time when ecumenical prospects must have seemed particularly discouraging. Perhaps there is now some scope for revisiting collectively and with minimal preconceptions what exactly the Fathers had to say about Mary’s virtue and grace, what these mean, why these were so important to them, and restating this shared understanding in a way that would resonate for both communions.
4. Is it possible for Catholics to envisage reunion with Orthodoxy on the basis of acceptance of the pious and edifying nature of belief in the IC, and let the Holy Spirit work His way over time towards more universal acceptance of this truth or, if He wills, towards its relativization in the broader scheme of Christian doctrine?
Andrea Elizabeth
I am surprised you have no problem with the Aquinas reference, since it is meant to defend the position which I thought you found repugnant: namely, the strict Augustinian thesis that God does not want all men to be saved. Against this position, Thomas has 1 Tim 2:4 to reckon with, so he interprets it restrictively as I said: “all men”, he says, must mean here only “all manner of men”. I would be truly surprised, given what I understand of your thought, if you were to follow him here.
As for the labels about labels indicating different “types” of grace, most contemporary Catholic theologians react against them – rightly I think – much as you do. They do not go back to Augustine; indeed most of them are post-Thomas. They only make sense if we understand them as purely notional distinctions permitting us to distinguish different operations of grace and the danger is that they get taken as really distinct “things” which are out there (or rather “in there” – in the soul that is). I was using them in this sense and faute de mieux, since it would be too time and space-consuming for me to seek a more user-friendly vocabulary, or one better rooted in the wider Tradition.
Photius and Perry
As for your position on the incarnation, I am inclined on reflection to think that it less subversive than I thought of a correct relation between nature and grace, and that there is more space for it within the wide spectrum of Catholic theology than you give the latter credit for. I was conflating your thought with that of people like Rahner, for whom divinising grace is more or less called for by the fact of God’s having created rational creatures. I omitted to take into account that for you – if I understand you correctly – the locus of the meeting of grace and nature is the Incarnation and not creation in se. By reading the creation in the light of the dispensation of the Incarnation, and positing that the latter conditions the former and not vice-versa, you are safeguarding the absolute gratuity of the divine gift of divinisation, while avoiding the trap into which some scholastic understandings of the donum superaditum fall: namely that of making grace and extrinsic adjunct to nature, merely juxtaposed or superimposed on it like oil floating on water. I am thus quite well disposed to this aspect of your thought. I would like however to make some qualifying points:
– It is not as absent from the western tradition as you seem to think. I think you are underestimating Scotus in this regard; however unsatisfactory his thought on other points I think his vision of the Incarnation is groping its way towards a position like yours. More contemporary Catholic theologians have talked in a not dissimilar way, and I think indeed that John Paul II has taught in this sense, at least as a private theologian (I am unable to provide references for this: can anyone help?)
– Although I think your thought on this point compatible with the dogmas of both halves of Christendom, I think it can only be regarded as a theologoumenon, since it does not appear to me to be taught by a consensus of the Fathers, even only the Greek ones. Moreover, I think it is possible to overestimate the possibilities of a concordantist reading of pre-Nicene Fathers (like Irenaeus) and post-Nicene ones. They were writing in a very different historical context, and I think it very difficult to be sure they were saying the same thing. Anyway, you or I are quite entitled to make a favourite theologoumenon a criterion for judging other theologoumena and including them in or excluding them from our own theological thinking on the basis of that criterion; I do not, however, think that we are entitled to erect it into an articulum stantis aut cadentis Ecclesiae, and juding the orthodoxy of other theologians (or Churches/ecclesial communities) on the basis of them alone. I realise you do not believe you are doing the latter, but we need to be careful about what is driving our agenda.
– I am reticent (but I admit I am not so sure of myself here) about the way in which you articulate your theological anthropology on the Incarnation. Of course, the latter must determine the former completely, but this does not mean that ontology of the graced human soul must reproduce necessarily and in every respect that of the Incarnate Word, who is a divine Person and not a deified human person.
– You have yet, I think, to make sufficient room for the necessity and/or utility of baptism, at least for infants. Indeed, if the Incarnation is sufficient basis for a saving and divinising encounter with Christ, why do we need sacraments at all?
– Even allowing for the above, I do not think that in fact your position justifies your refusal of any possibility of grace existing before human co-operation. Is not the Incarnation itself, in your vision, simply a primordial grace, an Ur-Gnade as we might say in German? And how can it be dependant upon a human will, since the human will of the Incarnate Word cannot pre-exist his constitution as a Person in two natures by his taking flesh?
Lastly, given my last point, how will it not be the case that the only possible locus for a human consent being at work in providing a synergistic cooperation with the primordial “grace-event” would be…the “fiat” of the Mother of God at the Annunciation? And how can we avoid the absurd and impious idea that the divine Economy is the result of an act of a created will, unless we believe that this act of will was a response to a prior gift of God’s grace? And if it is logically prior, why is it that it may not, that it SHOULD not be chronologically prior?
So you see, although I am in sympathy with much of your reasoning about the themes of fundamental theology which form the background to this discussion (and you deserve credit for helping move the discussion onto these themes), not only does this sympathy do nothing to make me move away from belief in the IC, but our encounter has actually made me personally appreciate the doctrine and its necessity in a more positive light!
Of course, as your discussion with Diana has highlighted, it is ultimately a matter of authority. You can only accept the IC as a dogma if you accept the papal claims. You believe conscientiously that you have reasons for not doing so which are independent of the questions discussed here and I respect that. It seems to me that in the end Orthodox have the possibility of seeing the IC either as a venerable theologoumenon, or as an error, in which case it might indeed have deleterious consequences in wider theological terms. I cannot, however, see how it could be stigmatised as a heresy. Saying that the Mother of God committed actual sin, while it may have isolated patristic comments in its favour, goes so much against the developed piety, liturgy and theology of the byzantine Church that I cannot but feel that for an Orthodox to say it today is nothing but a very regrettable over-reaction to what is understandably perceived as the arrogance of Rome in proclaiming a new dogma.
I have exhausted myself and perhaps also the patience of many a reader. Thanks to those who have persevered to the end! I will be away from the computer for a few days so I will take this as an opportunity to bow out of the discussion. Happy feast of the Dormition to those following the new calendar, and a blessed fast to those following the old!
Father Paul, Michaël, evagrius: I for one have greatly appreciated y’all’s posts. They are so chock-full of rich nuggets that I find myself constantly saying, “Oh, that’s good!” There are almost too many nuggets to keep track of, LOL. I have learned so much.
I hope this discussion can continue. In any event, I hope it remains in the archives…it’s a keeper!
God bless,
Diane
“You have yet, I think, to make sufficient room for the necessity and/or utility of baptism, at least for infants. Indeed, if the Incarnation is sufficient basis for a saving and divinising encounter with Christ, why do we need sacraments at all?”
Fr. Paul,
I’m going to answer these out of order as I find time here. Thanks for the post.
Baptism and the other Sacraments are necessary because of the doctrine of Recapitulation. Christ has healed human nature in his Incarnation, Life, Death, and Resurrection and in turn has recapitulated humanity (i.e. we are thinking here of nature not person or rather, all persons which point to what is in common). If there is a *prevenient* grace in Orthodoxy, it is this event. But, I must now *personally* make Christ’s baptism my own. I must *recontextualize* the event for my own life. This means Christ’s baptism is a type of my own baptism. This has some very strong exegetical foundations. One being the distinction between allegory and typology. Many modern exegetes often do not distinguish the two. Types are based on real historical events (Moses parting the Red sea is a type of our baptism), and types have the ability to be *recontexualized* into a new context while keeping the same conceptual meaning.
The rigorous pursuance between the categories of person and nature, as that distinction is understood from Christology, that provide me with the adequate “apparatus” to make sense of the Incarnation vis-à-vis the Sacraments. Christ’s Incarnation and Death heals me and guarantees me immortality (i.e. ever-being) but it doesn’t guarantee me the mode or kind that I will have (i.e. ever-well or ever-ill being). It is within this context that the “tropos hyparxis” (i.e. the mode of existence) is given shape. In doing so, I make my union with Christ an intensely personal union, and not just a consubstantial one that I have whether I like it or not.
I hope that suffices for your concern. If it doesn’t, I’ll try to expand more.
Photios
Fr Paul,
You are right that I believe God desires, and has provided for, all men to be saved. The distinction between all men and all manner of men is lost on me. I’m a big picture person and that seems to me like splitting hairs. Thanks so much for your clarification. I will now leave this discussion in the hands of my betters. :)
Evagrios,
and somewhat Michael,
I really don’t know what to tell you guys.
This is a discussion on the IC, and we all feel strongly about the issues. I engaged the article. This website invites others to voice their opinion in charity. Opposition or debate and even being pointed toward a doctrine and even feeling strong about the issue does not preclude in of itself charity. Otherwise, Paul is completely uncharitable in correcting Judaizers. I am not uncharitable in thinking the IC is wrong and gravely wrong. That I read the doctrine as incompatible with Christology and that it exasperates the “problem of evil” does not prima facie make me uncharitable. Saying that I believe a doctrine entails such-and-such and giving a reason for thinking so IS charitable. Otherwise, I would just be parroting others with no rationality or no familiarity, which would lack prudence. I have not attacked persons, and I have engaged the doctrine as Catholics understand it. By what you two say, you would think I would be saying something like, “Catholics are stupid people, because they believe in the Immaculate Conception,” or that I threatened you or that I cursed you. Neither one of you is my spiritual Father, so please stop with the Teacher “type” corrections. I’m a grown man, and I do not care to hear of them from you, especially since both of you are my opponents. I AM interested in what you two have to say by way of argument. As of right now, the only one that has offered a discussion by way of engagement and argument and charity is Fr. Paul. Is it not so hard to follow his example here? I haven’t the slightest problem with the way he is taking my words and I’m not offended in the least that he finds my arguments wanting in places. You keep saying I don’t understand Catholic teaching without *any* demonstration of this being so. RC teaching is NOT based on apparitions or visions or even particular spirituality of some school of nuns, and I can say that as a former Catholic. So, I’ll let the readers decide who is being uncharitable in this case.
I think you are generally frustrated because I’m not playing ball with the modern ecumenical agenda. I am NOT of that crowd. So if you are looking to see that kind of dialogue in my comments then I have no doubt that you will find my statements uncomfortable because they are apologetically a challenge to Roman Catholic historiography. But as of yet, I believe the moderator of this blog is open to all opinions. It’s not that I wish to be in opposition to Rome *per se*, but my love for the Gospel means I wish to see you converted in at least your thinking and demonstrate to my reading crowd that there are answers to these questions and for those that are on the “fence” that there is a principled *better* reasons for being Orthodox rather than Catholic (or Protestant).
I have no doubt that you will find this post equally uncomfortable and will feel that tingling sensation to lash back at me. That is not the response I wish to provoke from you. But rather, for you to forget about me, and engage the argument and put aside the fact that some people will find your doctrine wrong. I have no doubt that some people will find me wrong, nor do I have any anxiety or feel threatened by that.
If the moderator wishes to preclude the opposite party per se from these discussion, then I will kindly bow out and keep to myself.
Photios
And Ed de Vita. I didn’t mean to exclude you from the list of people that have engaged the discussion and engaged me. You have asked some of the best and challenging questions to my position.
because they are apologetically a challenge to Roman Catholic historiography.
Photios, I confess I haven’t read every jot and tittle that you’ve written here, but, judging by what I have read, I must say I haven’t seen too much in the way of historiographical arguments. Aren’t you arguing more on philosophical than on historical grounds? Or am I missing something?
I have no background in philosophy (which is why my eyes glaze over when I encounter such arguments; they are over my head). I do have a little teeny-weeny bit of background in history, though, although I’m very rusty after all these years…and, of course, others here have much greater background therein. So, if you would like to argue history, bring it on! (Even though, like Andrea Elizabeth, I will be content to leave the discussion in the hands of my betters…but at least I ill have some clue what the discussion is about, LOL,;)
Diane
P.S. Ed de Vita–I meant to include you in my paean of praise to the Catholic discussants extraordinaire.
Diane,
I’m arguing both because I’m arguing against the received and inceptive Augustinism by Western Christianity and the continuity of those ideas and how they are given formal shape by either RC or Protestant. Our arguments over some of the patristic texts (i.e. Irenaeus and other Fathers on “New Eve”) cited previously are an example and illustrative of our respective historiographies as we perceive them and how we interpret those texts.
Being a strict historian without a grasp of the philosophical and theological issues at stake is inadequate because most folks lack the dogmatic “sense” to adjudicate the data.
When I do theological exegesis of texts, I do not think of the exercise as compartmental or strictly academic. They are dogmatic and spiritual, so that the spiritual melds with the biblical which melds with the patristic which melds with the historical as a continental whole.
Photios
Gee Photios,
I didn’t know that you’re the “Orthodox” theologian par excellence and that I must therefore bow down to your superior insights etc;
I’m intrigued about your notion regarding Augustianism which you find to be so pervasive in the West.
I think that what you’re doing is following the lead of Romanides and others who see Augustine under every bush and bed even if he isn’t there. It reminds me of Epiphanius and his obsession with Origen.
There are differences between east and west but they’re not insurmountable, certainly not to the point that, somehow, they’re of completely different natures.
I think what you’re overlooking is that both Catholic and Orthodox theology have changed their perspectives over the last fifty or so years as a result of the re-introduction of the common patristic heritage.
As Bishop Hilarion said in an address a few years ago, there has to be a reintegration of all the patristic heritage which includes not only the Greek and Latin but the Syriac and “Oriental” patristic traditions. Doing that will go far in providing a comon language and increasing what you call “modern ecumenism”.
As far as the IC is concerned- I don’t agree with its original rationale but I do think the teaching points to a very deep mystery recognized in all the major traditions.
It could certainly be stated otherwise but, if it is to be stated otherwise, it will have to originate from the common patristic heritage.
Fr. Gillet pointed to that very common heritage.
So, work from that perspective rather than bring in “outlier” observations that distract.
“The IC is also very much a second order doctrine. I point this out well knowing that the hierarchy of truths is something Orthodox have difficulty with. The IC may be pious and edifying, but what really does it add to the Christian understanding of the faith?”
Back to the discussion…
Michael,
I have no problem with the idea of second order doctrines as these relate to speculation. The question I have, and I’m aware of Dulles’ statements on the assumption and the IC, is how can a *dogma* be a second order doctrine? If the doctrine is necessary for me to believe for my salvation, then how can it in thought be 2nd order? What of the anathema of the doctrine at that point?
Photios
Evagrios,
“Fr. Gillet pointed to that very common heritage.”
I highlighted the inadequacies of Fr. Gillet in post #54 particularly in paragraphs 2 and 4. The quotes are uncontextualized and the point of departure isn’t a common heritage but rather selected excerpts from the post-Schism Roman Empire (Byzantium) and Russia. No fault of him since it wasn’t to investigate the consensus patrum on that question and he readily admits its inadequate scope, but the reaction here seems to think otherwise. This is confirmed when you say, “It could certainly be stated otherwise but, if it is to be stated otherwise, it will have to originate from the common patristic heritage.” The article doesn’t articulate a “common patristic heritage,” so I wish to broaden its horizon toward that.
Furthermore, you should review my comments in post #143. FYI…
“I think that what you’re doing is following the lead of Romanides and others who see Augustine under every bush and bed even if he isn’t there.”
I’m definitely a theological progenity of Romanides, Metallinos, Sopko, Dragas, Metr. Vlachos and most importantly Joseph P. Farrell. But Romanides doesn’t think that Augustine is the sine qua non of the ill fate of the West but rather Augustine’s theological 9th century forebearers like Ratramnus, Alcuin, et al. This is because Romanides identifies the split of the consensus patrum and of the schism lies within the Bishop of Hippo himself. Both movements of Western and Eastern Europe are conatined WITHIN him: deification vs. created grace, essence/energy vs. filioquism/divine simplicity, Eucharistic ecclesiology of the North Africans vs. the Papacy, Warfield’s celebrated “the Reformation considered inwardly was a triumph of Augustine’s doctrine of grace vs. Augustine’s doctrine of the Church.” Think about the dialectic of oppositions in those ideas that can’t be denied that both ideas are in Augustine. In dogmatizing the filioque at Frankfurt, the 9th Century theologians had a hemeneutic to gut the rest and then formally shape the turn of Western Europe of how to read Augustine. I can see where Romanides goofs on certain areas of Augustine (having the majority of my academic background in the nose of Augustine and Teske, Gilson, Portalie, Bonner,Rist, et al.), but I don’t think the corrections actually touch the conceptual frame that Romanides points to.
Photios
I’m definitely a theological progenity of Romanides, Metallinos, Sopko, Dragas, Metr. Vlachos and most importantly Joseph P. Farrell.
I, on the other hand, am a theological “progenity” of the Catholic Church. I do not say this flippantly. I think this highlights the key difference between us and the reason why we (you and I at least) seem to be talking past each other.
I think it is quintessentially Protestant to identify and align oneself primarily with one or another theological school. Not that Catholicism lacks its “schools”; of course it has them aplenty. But they coexist under the Catholic Big Tent because Catholicism itself is bigger, broader, and far more important than any one school. Whereas in Protestantism alignment with one or another school is cause for a church split!
This is partly why your thinking strikes me as somewhat Protestant. It’s that theological party spirit: “I am of Apollos; I am of Cephas”…that kind of thing. I cannot even begin to relate to it. Sure, I may like some Catholic theologians more than others, but I can scarcely see basing my belief system on the thinking of any one theologian or gaggle of theologians or theological school. That just seems so…unCatholic, somehow.
Eucharistic ecclesiology of the North Africans vs. the Papacy
I would respectfully suggest that this “versus” may exist more in your imagination than in the historical record. ;)
Diane,
From one trepidatious but persistant 2 cent offerer to another, ;)
There does seem to be two camps in Orthodoxy, the Romanides non-Ecumenists who are hawkish, and the more hopeful Ecumenists who are dovish. It also seems to me that Catholics are more consistently dovish towards Ecumenism and accepting of our differences, but are pretty defensive when Orthodox hawks say that the differences are important and destructive. Then there are the Eastern Catholics who peacefully oppose elements of Western Catholicism but stay under the Pope. I understand them the least because they seem to care more for a singularly defined pure expression of faith, but they don’t seem to think it is compromised by communing with those who are more liberal in their acceptances. But they remain western Catholic because, istm, submission to the Magisterium trumps singularly defined, consistent, right faith and practice (I’m going on historic differences like bringing out and turning the alter around, unleavened bread, Papal infallibility, etc). But you all can point to hawkish Orthodox because there are divisions among them too, and it is hard to explain or prove how we think our differences among ourselves aren’t as devastating as the ones that divide the East and West. Though I am hopeful that ours are temporary since recent reunifications have taken place.
To me, the Orthodox Church, through grace and the free will of the Faithful, has wisely prioritized what differences matter, and which don’t, and who stays in communion with her and who doesn’t. And even the dovish Orthodox abide by these determinations as recent events between the MP (hawkish) and the EP (dovish) in the Ukraine show. By the way, Old Rite Catholics (if that is the term for the pre Vatican II adherents) are pretty upset at new turns of events, are they not? Not that they mind the dogma of the IC.
Diane,
The literary device that Paul uses in exhorting the Corinthians not to be “of Apollos or of Cephas,” is to point them back to the source of their teaching: to live by the scriptures:
(1 Cor 4:6) “And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”
The Corinthian problem was not in exalting Paul in his status as a Teacher but rather disparaging him. They were not building upon his foundation but rather supplanting it:
(1 Cor 4:15-16) “For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.”
Being sarcastic Paul says later in 2 Corinthinians 11:4-6 that,
“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.”
I don’t need “schools” nor do I follow a “school,” I just follow Orthodoxy. I do not believe the Lord Jesus Christ established different schools in the “Church” that can all disagree contradictory beliefs under the umbrella of the Bishop of Rome. He taught ONE faith and ONE baptism.
Photios
Andrea Elizabeth- I think you’re correct in your description of the theological currents in Orthodoxy.
The “hawk” current often exaggerates the importance of certain patristic views to the detriment of the actual facts. It’s easy to be polemic when one overlooks facts, or contrary opinions even within the same patristic author.
Further, they often bring up points that, to current Catholics, aren’t even germane and even inaccurate, ( I was in a class in which the professor, ( one named in the progeny list above), claimed that Catholic baptism once consisted of spitting on the baby! He apparently confused the rite of exorcism with that of baptism, something he should have known).
Further, there’s a tendency to de-historicize theology especially with the patristic authors, lumping an opinion of the 4-5th century with a 13-14th century opinion with a 20th century opinion, all having equal weight though each opinion was particular to a certain space and time and historical condition.
Of course, one can over historicize theology to the point of claiming that the patristics have nothing to say to us in the 21st century.
The “dovish” current is cognizable of the complexity of the theological situation and less prone to simplify it. Their problem is that they have to be quite careful in not appearing “un-Orthodox” while trying to advance their more nuanced views. It’s a delicate balancing act, one not helped oftentimes by Catholics of the “hawkish” type who also mischaracterize Orthodoxy.
Having had experience in Eastern Catholicism but of a limited type, I would say that you’re not quite correct. There’s an increasing novement for them to reclaim and reinstitute their “non-Latin” practices. At the parish I went to the srvice was completely Byzantine, fully Chrysostom, fully Basil, full calendar etc;. Mind you, the parish was small and virtually ignored by the hiearchy, ( thank goodness).
“I don’t need “schools” nor do I follow a “school,” I just follow Orthodoxy.”
Then you shouldn’t say that you’re the progeny of Romanides etc; particularly Farrell.
Evagrius,
You obviously missed the point above about having FATHERS. Re-read the post on Corinthians.
Photios
Photios,
“I really don’t know what to tell you guys.”
Well, this is a start. The change of tone is both remarkable and noted.
“This is a discussion on the IC, and we all feel strongly about the issues. I engaged the article.”
I can only express my own feelings here, but I strongly feel you are abstracting out the vocation of this site. It’s not intended as a battle ground for trolling theological combatants to rehearse their lines. There are many other sites for you to do this legitimately, and I have noted your awareness of them from your eager participation in them. If it were not for the vocation of this site, I wouldn’t be upbraiding you so here.
Catholics KNOW the IC is problematic for Orthodox. It’s not news to them. You aren’t offering anything by your approach that would interest anyone who isn’t a theological geek, and this is not what this site is about.
“This website invites others to voice their opinion in charity.”
It may be harsh on my part, but I see absolutely zero charity in your earlier posts. You offer an arrogant and dismissive assault on Diane’s piety and call it charity, presumably on the basis that you see yourself as enlightening her in her benighted superstitious ignorance. Get a grip! Pride is a sin. Accept correction in the same spirit of “charity” you claim to be offering.
“Opposition or debate and even being pointed toward a doctrine and even feeling strong about the issue does not preclude in of itself charity.”
No, they certainly don’t, but that’s not what is at issue. The problem is that you came here with the following set of more or less stated assumptions:
1. That you understand objectively what the 1854 definition is meant to express and don’t need to be told by Catholics what it means to and for them personally.
This precludes the possibility that you might have anything to learn from the discussion, except possibly in terms of how to hone your arguments against the doctrine. The charity involved is less than overwhelming.
2. That the doctrine, however expressed, is incompatible with orthodoxy, and that Orthodox who think otherwise suffer from some “ecumenical” mental deficiency or some Babylonian mental captivity to the West. Basically, orthodoxy and Orthodox doctrine are what you say they are, and those who disagree just aren’t willing or able to stare reality in the face. The charity here is again less than overflowing.
3. That you know Catholic doctrine better than any Catholic without a DD hanging on his or her wall, and thus can presume to demonstrate that Catholic beliefs (as you understand them) are incompatible with each other and therefore must logically be wrong. I don’t know about you, but I would normally assume that someone expressing an ounce of charity would presume that a perceived contradiction would be the result of his own misunderstanding.
“Otherwise, Paul is completely uncharitable in correcting Judaizers. I am not uncharitable in thinking the IC is wrong and gravely wrong. That I read the doctrine as incompatible with Christology and that it exasperates the “problem of evil” does not prima facie make me uncharitable.”
You are uncharitable, not in your beliefs, but in your methods. Charity relates to praxis. It involves *how* you express yourself, and the respect you demonstrate for the views and feelings of others. Your attempt to wrap yourself here in “charity” is downright morally perverse. I am communicating to you what I see as a painful truth that should in an ideal world lead to your betterment and edification, but I am not deluding myself into claiming I am exercising charity in doing so. I am sinning, I know, but I feel deeply provoked.
“Saying that I believe a doctrine entails such-and-such and giving a reason for thinking so IS charitable.”
By that reasoning, telling someone that your interpretation demonstrates the idiocy of his world view and spelling out in detail why this is so is an act of charity. I can see how such an understanding must salve your ego and conscience.
“Otherwise, I would just be parroting others with no rationality or no familiarity, which would lack prudence.”
That is a patently false dichotomy. Even a theologically minded philosopher (philosophically minded theologian?) should be able to see that.
“I have not attacked persons, and I have engaged the doctrine as Catholics understand it.”
You have engaged Catholic doctrine as *you* understand it. When I tried to point out to you repeatedly that scholastic and Augustinian concepts, distinctions, assumptions, and arguments were *not* doctrines (Catholic or otherwise), you just ignored me. I invited you to cite from the catechism in expressing Catholic doctrinal beliefs and understandings, and you just ignored me. I put five propositions and questions to you relating to the Catholic understanding of the IC and possible implications for reunion, and you ignored me. Forgive me for sensing a pattern here. You aren’t interested in “engaging” a Catholic perspective.
“Neither one of you is my spiritual Father, so please stop with the Teacher “type” corrections. I’m a grown man, and I do not care to hear of them from you, especially since both of you are my opponents.”
Now see, here you have hit the nub of the problem. We are *not* your opponents. You are the one coming here in theological armour waving your gladius. We are here (or so I would assume from the wording of the invitation) to see how divisions *might* be bridged. You are here to insist that they cannot be bridged (other than through capitulation by one side or the other). Thank you, but I don’t need that. You may be ultimately be correct in this assessment, but we have lots of ground to cover before we need to confront such a conclusion.
“I AM interested in what you two have to say by way of argument.”
Your interest in what we have to say is difficult to perceive. We tell you that we do not recognize the Catholic faith in your portrayal, and you ignore us. If you know better, offer authoritative, magisterial, doctrinal sources in support of your portrayal. That would be engagement. Treating yourself as an authority is not.
“As of right now, the only one that has offered a discussion by way of engagement and argument and charity is Fr. Paul. Is it not so hard to follow his example here?”
He is the only one who has engaged you on *your* terms, and who, for some reason that escapes me, lets slide your ill-founded assertions regarding Catholic doctrine. I can only guess that he does so because he thinks challenging you on them would only get in the way of points he wants to make. I don’t have his vocation or his forbearance, and I am not a theological geek.
“You keep saying I don’t understand Catholic teaching without *any* demonstration of this being so.”
It’s not up to *me* to demonstrate to you that your portrayal is inaccurate. As all the Catholics here (except Fr. Paul) have taken the trouble to point this out to you, it becomes incumbent on you, who do not claim to be of Roman obedience, to demonstrate to *us* that we are mistaken in our understanding of the Catholic faith. The best you have done in terms of response is toss out a few terms used in speculative theology and claim some form of doctrinal status for them.
That said, I am not arguing that some of these notions might not be held de fide by *some* Catholics. In my own experience some trained Catholic theologians are capable of expressing the most outrageous rubbish, but I have no difficulty making a distinction between speculative theology and what the Church actually teaches.
“RC teaching is NOT based on apparitions or visions or even particular spirituality of some school of nuns, and I can say that as a former Catholic.”
Your time as a Catholic can only have been short and your experience of Catholicism rather shallow. RC teaching may not be based on apparitions or visions, but beliefs can be. When those beliefs conform to Catholic teaching, that should suffice and be respected. It’s impertinent and uncharitable to dismiss arguments drawn from the experience of simple faith as “vacuous”. It’s as if Christianity for you exists solely in some rarefied theological ether, to be taken down from the shelf, held up to the light for a few minutes of examination and then replaced lest it affect one’s behaviour in such a way as to undermine objective detachment. Christianity is something you experience and *do* as much as something you believe intellectually.
“So, I’ll let the readers decide who is being uncharitable in this case.”
I am not the one ridiculously wrapping myself in a mantle of “charitable” sanctity. I *know* how un-charitable this whole discourse is.
“I think you are generally frustrated because I’m not playing ball with the modern ecumenical agenda. I am NOT of that crowd.”
And what exactly do you mean by “modern ecumenical agenda?” I’m here to see what scope there is for reconciling differing views. I’m here to learn. You came here to pontificate and demean. Please demonstrate to me that I am mistaken on this point so we can move on, as we surely will if you do.
“So if you are looking to see that kind of dialogue in my comments then I have no doubt that you will find my statements uncomfortable because they are apologetically a challenge to Roman Catholic historiography.”
I don’t find them uncomfortable in that sense so much as tiresome. Nor do I find them “apologetically challenging”. You have simply chosen your epistemological and hermeneutic grounds very narrowly. As a result your views are no more challenging to me than those of a eucharistic memorialist. We simply aren’t going to agree, no matter how much we spin our wheels. We won’t even agree on what constitutes proof.
“But as of yet, I believe the moderator of this blog is open to all opinions.”
It’s not your views or opinions that are at issue. It’s your claims to authority, your characterization of beliefs you do not hold, your dismissive lack of respect for others, and your unwillingness to engage in the purpose of the site, which is to *explore* (not write off) to what degree the divisions between the Churches can be legitimately breached.
“It’s not that I wish to be in opposition to Rome *per se*, but my love for the Gospel means I wish to see you converted in at least your thinking and demonstrate to my reading crowd that there are answers to these questions and for those that are on the “fence” that there is a principled *better* reasons for being Orthodox rather than Catholic (or Protestant).”
This site isn’t about converting anyone. If I see any Orthodox wavering, I will be sure to point them your way.
“I have no doubt that you will find this post equally uncomfortable and will feel that tingling sensation to lash back at me.”
You will have to trust me on this, but calling others to order speaks to a deeply authoritarian streak in me. I don’t find it uncomfortable in the least. I am, however, attempting to demonstrate to you, as to any enfant terrible, that you have been abusing of the forebearence of others. If you change tactics and so become a more discrete, cautious, respectful and so more effective enfant terrible, well I can live with that. :-D
“That is not the response I wish to provoke from you. But rather, for you to forget about me, and engage the argument and put aside the fact that some people will find your doctrine wrong.”
Well, if you haven’t noticed, I have been very careful in not expressing any doctrinal opinions of my own. I don’t think that aspect of *me* has any place here. I don’t care to engage my own beliefs in this kind of discussion as I am not looking into what to believe. I have a reasonably good grasp of what the Catholic Church teaches and holds Catholics to, and what Catholics are free to speculate over (a claim I cannot make for Orthodoxy). Given acceptance of a few axiomatic principles, Catholic doctrine is astonishingly (to me, at any rate) puncture proof. As an observer, I find that when it is pierced by a rapier, it is invariably a speculative distraction that gets skewered.
“I have no doubt that some people will find me wrong, nor do I have any anxiety or feel threatened by that.”
I can’t say your personal beliefs are wrong. But the opinions you express about the nature and specifics of Catholic doctrine often are.
“If the moderator wishes to preclude the opposite party per se from these discussion, then I will kindly bow out and keep to myself.”
Here is where I, for one, appreciate your constructive input. There is a tension in the Orthodox approach to ecumenism. Everyone knows that a reunion of the Churches would produce more schisms within each communion. The fear of such schisms helps maintain a healthy caution in what might otherwise degenerate into a lowest common denominator love in. There is utility then in hearing from anti-ecumenists a critique of whatever proposals for reconciliation might be mooted. Such a critique helps relativize the shared understandings that might otherwise be reached with the more ecumenically disposed on the other side who would shy away if confronted with the threat of some of their co-religionists to walk.
There is a risk, however, in granting a disproportionate say to the anti-ecumenists in the process of discussion. They aren’t committed to it and see the whole exercise as inherently subversive. They don’t even want discussions to reach the stage of mooting proposals that can be critically assessed. In essence anti-ecumenists on either side have a profound contempt for the intellectual rigour and commitment of their more ecumenically minded co-religionists who obviously can’t be trusted to speak to the enemy.
Hence sites like these where Orthodox and Catholics mix draw Athonite anti-ecumenists like flies (Catholic-Protestant sites tend to attract the anti-ecumenical Catholic traddies I find equally tiresome). They can’t resist trying to gum up the works by misrepresenting the other side’s doctrine, and indulging in sweeping ad hominem attacks against any on their own side who might have had the temerity past or present to express sympathy for the “other” perspective or a willingness to integrate it into their own.
So please participate, but find a way to distinguish yourself from such trolls. If a Catholic tells you he doesn’t recognize his faith in your description, accept that you may be at fault in your assumptions or in your representation. Don’t just assume you are dealing with an ignorant Catholic. Refer back to the catechism and what it teaches. It’s not infallible, but it is very nuanced. I keep a copy of it next to my computer. Eastern Catholics have gone over it very carefully to make sure typically Western notions and assumptions haven’t been informally “dogmatized” through ignorance of the Eastern perspective. Would that Orthodoxy made as much room in the explication of its faith to Western perspectives.
Please participate, but accept that yours is not the only orthodoxy (even within Orthodoxy). Treat with intellectual and historical respect the reputations of your fellow Orthodox past and present for whom typically Western beliefs do not smack of heresy. They share the same communion cup you do, and dismissing them as Western thralls just undermines your own credibility.
Please participate, but recognize that Christianity is not solely an intellectual exercise governed by the pliable and protean ministrations of logic and philosophy. Respect the simple faith of others as just as profound as your own. Faith rests on mystery, not logic.
Beyond that, be as critical and opiniated as you wish.
“He apparently confused the rite of exorcism with that of baptism, something he should have known.”
It’s the rite of *exsufflation* which was a common North African liturgical rite, common to Cyprian, Optatus, and Augustine and a good one and was practiced as PART and PARCEL to Baptism and during the whole rite. Perhaps you misunderstood your prof or he simply goofed.
Read Augustine, he articulates the practice against the Pelagians as being a part of baptism. Death no longer has hold over the infant or adult by the act.
Perhaps you just need to pay better attention during class or do your homework.
Photios
I see the tone of the discussion has improved immensely while I was writing my previous post. It should be read with this observation in mind.
“You offer an arrogant and dismissive assault on Diane’s piety and call it charity, presumably on the basis that you see yourself as enlightening her in her benighted superstitious ignorance. Get a grip! Pride is a sin. Accept correction in the same spirit of “charity” you claim to be offering.”
I stated to Diane,
“It’s quite odd of those that rebuff logic when the Triadological model that is definitional for you by the Council of Florence says that the Persons of the Trinity are distinguished on the basis of opposing relations. Think about those implications.”
Michael,
Why do you load “arrogant” and “assault” into your responses. I tried to be respectful to you as my opponent (yes you are that) in my response as best I could. Opponent doesn’t mean you are my enemy, it means a person that holds a different and opposing view point.
No, I will not change how I do things. If this is an open forum, I will continue to represent and discuss and ask the difficult questions and the appropriate reductio’s that I see fit. That’s part and parcel of a discussion: to find continuity.
“They can’t resist trying to gum up the works by misrepresenting the other side’s doctrine, and indulging in sweeping ad hominem attacks against any on their own side who might have had the temerity past or present to express sympathy for the “other” perspective or a willingness to integrate it into their own.”
Please document where I have made sweeping ad hominems toward others, if you cannot then please do not bear false witness toward me please. Thank you.
Photios
Evagrius,
I tried to be non-accusatory in my characterization of hawks and doves. Being hawkish myself, I don’t see that they minimize “certain patristic views to the detriment of actual facts.” If Truth is a person, it is harder to define it, not that defining it is subjective. There is however a prioritization of teachings, as Photios pointed out. Some must be believed for salvation as stated dogmatically (from our pov) in the original Nicene-Constantinoplean Creed and Seven Ecumenical Councils. In that sense, we believe that there is continuity between 4th – 21st Century Dogma. But some of the Canons are seen in more of a contemporary cultural light. If you trust Orthodoxy you believe that these adjustments are valid, and if you don’t you think they prove that the Orthodox are just as inconsistent as anyone. Life is messy that way.
I do not know that the doves are stifling their differences with the hawks as much as you say, to me it’s more a matter of how to approach the same differences, and perhaps differing in opinions about how “contaminating” those differences are. I don’t think they are secretly wanting the fence to dissolve, they just resent the polemical attitude of the hawks and want to be more friendly and appreciative of their neighbors. But it is still a balancing act as you say.
Photios,
“I have no problem with the idea of second order doctrines as these relate to speculation. The question I have, and I’m aware of Dulles’ statements on the assumption and the IC, is how can a *dogma* be a second order doctrine? If the doctrine is necessary for me to believe for my salvation, then how can it in thought be 2nd order? What of the anathema of the doctrine at that point?”
Thank you for finally engaging substantively. Let me be clear on some definitions, and you will see many of the difficulties fade into the woodwork. Failure to accept a second order doctrine is not, per se, an obstacle to salvation. That’s what makes it second order. The apostles handed either through word, practice or example a complex body of “truth”. Not all this “truth” is necessarily essential to salvation.
Nevertheless the Church remains the arbiter of what has truthfully been handed down (essential to salvation or otherwise). Contesting the Church’s judgment in this area does not ipso facto cast you into Hell. It is, however, sufficient grounds for the Church to emphasize its teaching authority by denying you access to the sacraments as a disciplinary response.
The Church teaches the IC to be true, not essential. If you don’t accept the Church’s teaching authority, however, you undermine the foundation of apostolic transmission, and so are denied communion.
Other second order doctrines might include, for example, “the infallibility of the Church” (a misnomer, but I don’t have time for a more nuanced allusion). So long as you accept the content of what is taught, the fact that you contest the authority of the one who teaches is of secondary (yet still significant) importance.
Orthodox can, in extremis, be granted Catholic communion if they request it because the Catholic Church doesn’t see Orthodoxy as contesting any first order doctrines. Since the issues dividing the Churches are seen as second order, the bar in this case is merely disciplinary, and can be suspended, according to the Church’s prudential judgment, in a way that cannot be done for most (almost all) Protestants. A very small number of Protestants who have pointedly confessed all the first order doctrines have been granted communion on their deathbeds at their request.
Orthodoxy doesn’t see things this way, and so has a different practice. But I also believe that the difficulty most Orthodox have in appreciating the Catholic distinction between first and second order doctrine leads to over reaction to the definitions the West has articulated unilaterally. These don’t have quite the import for the West most Orthodox think they do. Hence the dispensation for most Eastern Catholics from reciting the filioque strikes many Orthodox as opportunistic and cynical. Eastern Catholics recognize Rome’s authority to “allow” (orthodox) interpolations to the Creed. So the issue of authority isn’t engaged, and there is thus neither a doctrinal nor disciplinary bar to communion between the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches even as most of the latter continue to recite the Creed in its uninterpolated form.
I hope this makes sense.
“Failure to accept a second order doctrine is not, per se, an obstacle to salvation.”
Michael,
Let me hone in on this comment here in light of what Pius IX says,
“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”
“Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.” – exceprt from the Definition of Ineffabilis Deus
So, if one is condemned by their own judgment by denying it (and here I’m not concerned with WHO, protestant, catholic, or orthodox), how can you say it is not an “obstacle to salvation.” Pius’ words seem to say that it is.
Photios
Photios,
“Please document where I have made sweeping ad hominems toward others, if you cannot then please do not bear false witness toward me please.”
Need I refer you to your sweeping dismissal of the witness certain Russian theologians as being captive of Western thought because of the machinations of Peter the Great? That’s an ad hominem attack. You do not address the substance of their views but simply dismiss these based on who you feel they were or what you think happened to them.
Your thesis, btw, might be a plausible explanation for their views, but cannot be the basis for dismissing them as un-Orthodox. They were Orthodox communicants in good standing. Their views thus lie within the realm of acceptable Orthodoxy by any reasonable definition until anathemized. If Western-like or influenced thinking is, a priori, going to be dismissed as un-Orthodox…
“Thank you.”
You are most welcome. :-)
Photios,
“Let me hone in on this comment here in light of what Pius IX says,
“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”
“Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.” – exceprt from the Definition of Ineffabilis Deus
So, if one is condemned by their own judgment by denying it (and here I’m not concerned with WHO, protestant, catholic, or orthodox), how can you say it is not an “obstacle to salvation.” Pius’ words seem to say that it is.”
Respectfully Photios, you have misconstrued the Pontiff’s words. When he says “he is condemned by his own judgment” he is referring to the dissident’s self-excommunication. This idea that “condemnation” refers conventinally to one’s salvation in first instance is very typical of Protestants. From an Orthodox perspective, I would say Pius’ words betray a typically Catholic obsession with legal niceties distinctions. But what can we do? That’s Catholicism for you, and that’s how Catholics will have read the Pope’s words.
That said, there was a strong current of belief at the time that salvation was impossible absent access to valid sacraments, and so the two interpretations might have fused in the minds of many. But that’s never been more than speculation, and the two Vatican Councils read together appear to exclude such an understanding.
I should clarify that this does not make the IC an “optional” doctrine. If you do not believe in the IC you are not a Catholic in the full sense of the word.
I’ve been away from my computer for some time, and I noticed that some of the comments are getting personal. Please, friends, let’s not go there …
Michael,
I have no quarrel with the idea that you construe the “condemnation” as “self-excommunication.” The problem I have with that is in thinking that “excommunication” canonically, liturgically, covenantally, or what have you, does not bear a danger or in your words an “obstacle to one’s salvation.”
Photios
Photios,
Certainly, the excommunicate faces such a danger. The sacraments exist for a reason, and the Church expects the dread of exclusion to have some salutary effect in forcing the dissident to conform his conscience to what the Church teaches.
But you can’t compare the risk of dying unshriven or being buried in unconsecrated ground, for example, with the assured damnation of one who repudiates the divinity of Christ, ascribes culpability to God, or even of the merely unrepentant sinner. It is of a different order.
The excommunicate finds himself alone in the struggle against evil without the post baptismal graces and supports the communion of the saints in Christ would otherwise offer him. He is thus severely handicapped in his struggle to reach for the extended hand of God, but not altogether without hope. The willful heretic, on the other hand, loses his salvation outright through his defiance of God, not of the Church.
Dear Editor,
I think the boil of acrimony has been lanced. We are now each clearer in what we expect, are comfortable with, and hope to achieve. And yet though things are better now, I can’t help but acknowledge that my charity has been sorely wanting.
God bless, all!
Today (as my Catholic brethren know) is the Feast Day of Saint Maximilian Kolbe, martyr of charity, who was greatly devoted to the Immaculate Conception.
Saint Maximilian, pray for us!
Diane, also sorely lacking in charity
“Your thesis, btw, might be a plausible explanation for their views, but cannot be the basis for dismissing them as un-Orthodox. They were Orthodox communicants in good standing. Their views thus lie within the realm of acceptable Orthodoxy by any reasonable definition until anathemized.”
Well first off this is not ad hominem. In worst case, I am mistaken in my historical analysis of Russian Orthodoxy, but I don’t think I am. Furthermore, you don’t need to have a Council to anathematize or think that a doctrine is unorthodox (Romanides’ Church, Synods, and Civilization). What council condemned Gnosticism? Contemporary Orthodoxy has judged much of “medieval” (if one could even SAY that there is such a thing as a “medieval” period in Russia) Russian thought and found it lacking in Orthodoxy and at worst down right Gnostic (the Sophiology of Bulgakov, Berdiaev, and Soloviev) in the 18th – early 20th century. Orthodoxy was not so much preserved through the ecclesiastical “structure” which seem to be “more” or “less” Orthodox in appearance only, but rather in the Monasteries where illumination and purification of the heart was practiced. Two works that substantiate this claim, George Florovsky’s “Ways of Russian Theology,” and the much more detailed and lengthy analysis in Dr. Daniel Payne’s dissertation “Political Hesychasm,” which can be found on my blog. If there can be called a “Dark Ages” to Orthodox history, its during this time. Just to tack something else on here, if anyone is in doubt about which side Fr. George Florovsky is on, I fully recommend you take a look at the Princeton Firestone letters between he and Fr. John Romanides in Payne’s dissertation. The man that taught, shaped, formed, befriended, encouraged, and influenced Fr. John Romanides was none other than Florovsky. The very ironic thing about folks that love Florovsky and despise Fr. John, is that Florovsky’s greatest protege and student was Fr. J-O-H-N Romanides! After doing my own study of the “neo-Patristic” movement, I am fully of the opinion that the light of Orthodoxy is just now coming out of that Dark Cave that she was in since the fall of Roumeli.
“You do not address the substance of their views but simply dismiss these based on who you feel they were or what you think happened to them.”
Of course I do. The thrust of Maximus’ Diothelite Christology is about as substantial critique as I’ve seen to the IC. And on that score, Perry and myself have added something *unique* and given the theological shape and *rationale* to the instinctual insites of other Orthodox in their rejection of the doctrine. Another very good theological critique is Gabriel’s “Mary the Untrodden Portal of God.”
Photios
Critique away, my friend Photios, substantially or otherwise. The doctrine remains true, notwithstanding a million such critiques. ;)
Diane,
I have no doubt that my arguments will affect little in your belief in the supposed truth in the IC. This is because you and I have different mechanisms on how to discover the truth. In pressuposing Christianity, I think discovering the truth of Patristic christianity is quite simple once one gains the knack for the movements toward and away from Hellenization in the Church up until the final repudiation of the methods of pagan philosophy in the Triumph of Orthodoxy or in the long retrospective of a John of Damascus that the heretics all do the same thing, they say that person and nature are identical.
I’m sensitive to the fact that you feel like much of the Christological doctrine is above your thinking, so I try, as I can, not to engage you too much on that level or hold you accountable to the argument. I am challenging, those who are able, and keeping them accountable to the received Tradition especially the method, paradigm, and truth of the theology of the 4th- 6th Councils.
Photios
With all due respect, Photios, your method of discerning True Christianity(TM) strikes me as more than a tad Gnostic. Could the Apostles–mostly rough unlettered men–have recognized True Christianity if they’d had to employ your methods? How can the saving truth of he Gospel be that abstruse, that inaccessible? Sure, it’s not the oversimplified, reductionist “pure gospel” of the fundies. But it’s not a PhD dissertation, either. If it were, only the erudite could hope to recognize the True Gospel and the True Church. That’s Gnosticism in a nutshell: reducing the Gospel to gnosis, and pretty arcane gnosis at that.
That is why I prefer using historical tools (with which I do have some experience). Historical data can be interpreted every which way, sure; but they still possess a refreshing concreteness and specificity, at least compared with all this epistemological and philosophical mumbo-jumbo.
Diane
“Love the Immaculata!” — Saint Maximilian Kolbe
“If it were, only the erudite could hope to recognize the True Gospel and the True Church. That’s Gnosticism in a nutshell: reducing the Gospel to gnosis, and pretty arcane gnosis at that.”
Not at all. I’m saying it’s a far simpler understanding than what Newman imagined. What I’m saying, in a nutshell is you don’t need a rather complex theory of “development” to explain Nicea or Chalcedon or any other views of Orthodoxy. “Development” is exactly what the Gnostics were doing to justify their doctrine. In fact modern academics have much more in common with them, because it is a subtle technique of subversion and giving old terms new meaning. They dogmatize their views and brand them with the ultimate prohibition of questions.
“That is why I prefer using historical tools.”
I believe the papacy prevents you from doing the kind of exegesis of historical data that I would offer.
“have recognized True Christianity if they’d had to employ your methods?”
Diane, how did Christ handle this question? Have you not read what the Scriptures said about ME? Christ held men accountable to the word of God.
Photios
I believe the papacy prevents you from doing the kind of exegesis of historical data that I would offer.
What does that mean? (Sincere question; I have no earthly what you are getting at here.)
Thanks…
Sorry, Photios, but if you’re trying to convert Catholics by your arguments, it just isn’t working.
We won’t be convinced because you can construct some conceivably plausible materially valid line of logic that “proves” the IC will lead to some kind of error in Christology or Triadology. That’s a nice intellectual exercise, but we’re not buying it. Especially if you add in an argument that Mary actually sinned. That’s a total non-starter (as I expect it is for many Orthodox, as well).
From within the Catholic Christian faith, we who believe in the IC and are devoted to it can see something that you are apparently missing.
We see the dogma as a great testament to the redemptive mission of Christ. We see the activity of Father, Son and Spirit in preserving her from sin, as a worthy vessel for the Eternal Word made flesh, the tabernacle for the Body of the Lord. We see a great gift of grace by God permitting Mary to enjoy the true human freedom that He intended from creation — confirmed in her free choice to say “yes” to Him (just as Adam and Eve freely said “no”). The notion that the IC is incompatible with authentic Christology and Triadology is, frankly, incomprehensible to us, because we see it as a celebration and confirmation of those truths. Contemplation of the dogma leads us to a deeper awareness of the truths of our faith.
We see this in the great and brilliant saints and theologians (like St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger, and many more), all of whom are many times smarter and holier than any of us, who are staunch adherents of the IC and who have never been led into any theological error as a result, neither about Christology, nor Triadology, nor any other subject. Never. None. Not at all. Not in the least bit.
That tells us something.
In fact, we see the fruits of the IC in the deep devotion of millions of Catholics, who come to love Jesus and believe in him more deeply, through their devotion to Mary Immaculate. We think of today’s saint, Maximilian Kolbe, who gave heroic witness to the Lord, deepened and confirmed by his devotion to the IC. Piety, even if it never results in learned papers, tells us a lot when it bears such fruit.
We also see a long history of our Eastern Orthodox brethren who have shared our belief in the perpetual sinlessness of Mary, and even in her Immaculate Conception (albeit expressed in different theological terms), as outlined in the article that was the source for this thread. We find it hard to believe that there is no room in Orthodoxy for belief in the IC.
Here’s what the Lord said: “Every sound tree bears good fruit, but he bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Mt. 7:17-18)
Ed Mechmann,
“We see the dogma as a great testament to the redemptive mission of Christ. We see the activity of Father, Son and Spirit in preserving her from sin, as a worthy vessel for the Eternal Word made flesh, the tabernacle for the Body of the Lord.”
I think it undermines the activities of the Lord and as Orthodox theologian Dr. George Gabriel says,
“The dogma of the Immaculate Conception severs Mary from her ancestors, from the forefathers, and from the rest of mankind. It marginalizes the preparatory history and economy of the Old Testament as well as the true meaning and holiness of the Theotokos herself. By severing her from fallen mankind and any consequences of the fall, this legalistic mechanism makes her personal holiness and theosis nonessential in the economy of salvation and, for that matter, even in her own salvation. Moreover, “it places in doubt her unity of nature with the human race and, therefore, the genuineness of salvation and Christ’s flesh as representative of mankind. [Qutoing, A., Yevtich, The Theotokos: Four Homilies on the Mother of God by St. John of Damascus, 3].” –George S. Gabriel, Ph.D., Mary, the Untrodden Portal (Thessalonica and Ridgewood, NJ: Zephr, 2000), 68.
If Mary was created virtuous, then either a) she pre-existed the body in which her virtuousness was had by an act of will before a fall into the body or, b) God can create a person virtuous without the motion of their will.
“We see a great gift of grace by God permitting Mary to enjoy the true human freedom that He intended from creation — confirmed in her free choice to say “yes” to Him (just as Adam and Eve freely said “no”).”
You don’t need to be Immaculately Conceived to say “yes” to God. That doesn’t follow, nor does it follow that this is what the Fathers and St. Luke had in mind. That has to be demonstrated from the text.
“all of whom are many times smarter and holier than any of us, who are staunch adherents of the IC and who have never been led into any theological error as a result, ”
I believe all the “saints,” popes, and theologians that you mentioned erred in perpetuating the “dogma” of the filioque.
“We won’t be convinced because you can construct some conceivably plausible materially valid line of logic that “proves” the IC will lead to some kind of error in Christology or Triadology.”
I have no doubt that you won’t. Most people care little for consistency anyway, but there are those out there on the fence that are thinking Christians that don’t wish to be told what to believe will most definitely be interested in these dialogues.
“Especially if you add in an argument that Mary actually sinned.”
I’m hardly committed to that view. I’m open to it just as many Orthodox are because the human condition leans and points in that direction for everyone who is a created person. How would you ever even begin to know that in a dogmatic sense, besides Roming telling you to? Only God can answer that question, and he has not revealed that to us.
“and even in her Immaculate Conception (albeit expressed in different theological terms), as outlined in the article that was the source for this thread.”
Let me quote again a point in the article that was not pursued much at all as a hermenutic:
“Thirdly, we recognize the fact that Latin theologians very often used inadequate arguments in their desire to prove that the Immaculate Conception belonged to the Byzantine theological tradition. They sometimes forced the sense of the poetic expressions to be found in the liturgy of Byzantium; at times they misinterpreted what were merely common Byzantine terms to describe Mary’s incomparable holiness, as a sign of belief in the Immaculate Conception.”
If you want to use the example of “medieval” Russia, I’ve answered that in #191. Perhaps you’re familiar with Payne’s dissertation and many others that have pointed out the very UNOrthodox nature of theology in Russia during this time period.
Photios
Ed,
I of course relate to “believe as your betters do”, but I don’t think it should end there. I think it important to think through ramifications and sources of beliefs as well. I have been recently trying to rethink western romanticism as I have a lifetime experience (I’m 42) of escaping to that dreamworld, but conscience wont let me stay there. The whole idea of the rescue of a passive damsel in distress is wearing off in our culture, not that it still isn’t a deeply ingrained part of our expectations. It is sweet and nice to think of a chivalrous Christ doing all the work for Mary, but in reality, I believe that even women need to be held responsible for their actions. Mary is more of a source of encouragement to me as pointing to the ability of humanity to seek after and commune with God, not that He’s not already there and initiating. Romantic thinking lets women swoon and be powerless and ditsily unaware. I think Mary was stronger than that. I don’t know if she ever sinned, I’m fine with her not giving in to temptation through grace and her own struggle with her will, however strongly she was tempted. C.S. Lewis has a more active role assigned to women in his stories, like the archer Susan in the Chronicles of Narnia than the incapable female in a tower somewhere, even though it would be nice and sweet and we could be oh so happy and thankful and escapedly blissful if she didn’t have to work for it. So I do see negative ramifications in over-romanticizing male-female, human-God relationships, and I attribute dissapointment, unrealistic expectations, and divorce to this cause.
The whole idea of the rescue of a passive damsel in distress is wearing off in our culture, not that it still isn’t a deeply ingrained part of our expectations. It is sweet and nice to think of a chivalrous Christ doing all the work for Mary, but in reality, I believe that even women need to be held responsible for their actions.
I am genuinely scratching my head here. How on earth does the IC doctrine absolve Our Lady from “responsibility for [her] actions”? As has been pointed out repeatedly here, the IC did not absolutely predetermine Mary’s life: She still had to cooperate with God’s Grace at every moment of her existence. Her free will remained operative. She was not utterly passive.
I can understand why you would object to a caricature of Catholic belief, but please do understand that that is what it is: a caricature, not the real thing.
Thanks! :)
God bless in the Immaculata,
Diane
Diane,
I just don’t believe she needed it. There were righteous people before her who achieved uncommon union with God through obedience. She may have achieved even closer union, but it is not beyond, in a manner of speaking, what we can achieve through common grace. Her being the Mother of God makes her most blessed, and she intercedes for us as our Mother to achieve the same union, if we will forsake our passions and join body, soul and mind with her Son. I know she her actually giving birth to Christ is distinct from how we become God-bearers, but that is distinguished in Christ’s conception, not hers.
Andrea Elizabeth:
I don’t know about “needed it.” The Catholic argument (as i understand it) is that it was fitting, not that it was strictly necessary.
But can’t you see the fittingness? If the Ark that contained the Old Covenant had to be so ritually pure that no layman could touch it (on pain of death!), how much purer should the Ark containing the New Covenant, God Incarnate, be? Should not Christ’s Mother have been pure and holy in a special way? Does it not diminish Christ, just a tiny tad, when we diminish Our Lady?
And what about the Fathers’ New Eve-Old Eve distinction? This keeps getting shunted aside in the present discussion, but I find said shunting just a tad too convenient. The New Eve theme is very important–and very patristic! The parallelism works only if we assume the Immaculate Conception: Just as Eve was created pure and sinless, so was the New Eve, Mary. (And whereas Eve did not remain so, Mary did; hence Mary is the “untier of knots.”) This is all thoroughly patristic, and I do not see how it can be ignored or ‘splained away.
It is precisely because she is Mother of God that the IC follows. It is because she bore God Himself that “it was fitting” that she be perfectly pure, just as the OT Ark had to be.
Hope that clarifies the Catholic stance…
Diane
Photios,
“Furthermore, you don’t need to have a Council to anathematize or think that a doctrine is unorthodox (Romanides’ Church, Synods, and Civilization).”
That may be true, but I would certainly need a lot more than your say so.
“What council condemned Gnosticism?”
The point I made was that if their contemporaries in the other Orthodox Churches were content to stay in communion with these Russians you so are so willing to posthumously anathemize, this offers prima facie evidence that their beliefs were not deemed incompatible with orthodoxy. Gnostics were never in communion with the Church. You are throwing up a complete red herring.
“Contemporary Orthodoxy has judged much of “medieval” (if one could even SAY that there is such a thing as a “medieval” period in Russia) Russian thought and found it lacking in Orthodoxy and at worst down right Gnostic (the Sophiology of Bulgakov, Berdiaev, and Soloviev) in the 18th – early 20th century.”
I see. And which council of Orthodox bishops made this authoritative determination?
And what defines “contemporary Orthodoxy” anyway? And why should it be more credible to us? If Orthodoxy could have so sadly erred then, from what does it draw it’s authority now?
The Middle Ages were long over by the time of Peter the Great, btw. They would have ended in Russia with the death of Ivan the Terrible.
I think what we have here is a fundamental difference in epistemology. I mean this seriously. If you think you are making convincing arguments, you should poll those here and consider the results.
Catholics see diversity in Orthodoxy in both time and place. Orthodoxy, for Catholics, is represented by the communion of Eastern Orthodox Churches and their members under their bishops. Beliefs these people hold and express while in communion with each other define for us the content of the faith for Orthodoxy. Where there is disagreement that extends beyond tolerable bounds, we expect the Orthodox bishops to take action *collectively* and condemn beliefs that go beyond the pale, not as individual theologians but as law-making hierarchs. If they haven’t done so, this is prima facie evidence for us that such beliefs are acceptable to, and compatible with, the doctrine of the Orthodox Church. Theologians, no matter how brilliant or popular, hold no *authority* for Catholics beyond what they might exercise as part of their episcopal mandate as successors to the apostles.
“Orthodoxy was not so much preserved through the ecclesiastical “structure” which seem to be “more” or “less” Orthodox in appearance only, but rather in the Monasteries where illumination and purification of the heart was practiced. Two works that substantiate this claim, George Florovsky’s “Ways of Russian Theology,” and the much more detailed and lengthy analysis in Dr. Daniel Payne’s dissertation “Political Hesychasm,” which can be found on my blog.”
Epistemology again. Who are Florovsky and Payne that we should care about their opinions? What *authority* do they have in this matter? Did Christ himself ordain them on the road to Damascus? When were they vested with some super-Petrine mandate to separate the sheep from the goats? Or for that matter, did Christ or the apostles create the episcopate as some form of sacrament dispensing facade, all the while intending that the faith should be transmitted pure through the ages by the monastic order instead?
“If there can be called a “Dark Ages” to Orthodox history, its during this time. Just to tack something else on here, if anyone is in doubt about which side Fr. George Florovsky is on, I fully recommend you take a look at the Princeton Firestone letters between he and Fr. John Romanides in Payne’s dissertation.”
Who is Florovsky to me, and why should I care?
“The man that taught, shaped, formed, befriended, encouraged, and influenced Fr. John Romanides was none other than Florovsky. The very ironic thing about folks that love Florovsky and despise Fr. John, is that Florovsky’s greatest protege and student was Fr. J-O-H-N Romanides!”
So what? Romanides wasn’t one of the Twelve that I, or anyone else, should see his views as inspired. Why should he have any authority whatsoever for me or anyone else? Has his word somehow become Gospel? Does Romanides = Orthodoxy now?
“After doing my own study of the “neo-Patristic” movement, I am fully of the opinion that the light of Orthodoxy is just now coming out of that Dark Cave that she was in since the fall of Roumeli.”
Well, I just don’t know how to respond to such a breathtaking assertion. How Protestant of you to see but a vestige of orthodoxy in the Church of the last five centuries. I guess the Gates of Hell must have prevailed for a time after all. That Christ guy must have been wrong all along.
Remember your audience. Can you not see that addressing Catholics with this sort of argumentation can only fatally undermine your credibility in speaking for Orthodoxy?
“Can you not see that addressing Catholics with this sort of argumentation can only fatally undermine your credibility in speaking for Orthodoxy?”
No not at all.
“How Protestant of you to see but a vestige of orthodoxy in the Church of the last five centuries. I guess the Gates of Hell must have prevailed for a time after all.”
No, there were always true believers. Guess you failed to read that part where I believe Orthodoxy was being preserved. Last time I checked the Sacraments were dispensed in the Monasteries.
…Just like that “Protestant” Maximus the Confessor or like that “Protestant” Athanasius who maintained the faith in a world full of Arians (including the Roman Bishop).
It’s not like there were a lot of Orthodox to teach the Orthodox faith in Maximus’ day. You have Maximus and his lil band of followers and a Roman Bishop. Orthodoxy is where the Orthodox faith is maintained.
Photios
Interesting conversation that’s going nowhere.
I think part of the problem is that there’s a pattern of dualistic thinking going on here.
There seems to be a duality; sin vs. non-sin. Either one is sinful or one is not sinful.
Somehow, I don’t think that such an analysis is actually correct or applicable with the doctrine being debated or discussed here.
The IC actually points to a non-dual reality. The Theotokos actually embodies the true non-dual relationship that we as humans are called to. The language of sin/ non-sin is inapplicable to her. Holiness is non-dual, beyond the notion of sin and non-sin. The IC is actually an apophatic doctrine if one carefully looks at it.
Don’t get confused with the theological rationale for it which is mired in the dualistic language, ( unfortunately a result of poor degraded scholastic thinking, one not really equivalent to the best of that theological tradition), and which results in the confusion apparent in this discussion.
If you don’t like the term non-dual, then think of the IC as mystery.
It’s not a problem. A problem is resolvable by logic.
A mystery is not resolvable by logic.
A mystery is to be contemplated and absorbed, imitated, in order to be comprehended and lived.
I pointed out earlier that the Theotokos is the Queen of contemplatives. Contemplation, in its essence, ( or, if you like, prayer), is non-dual and mysterious. Prayer, in its essence, is the willing accord of the one praying with the prayer being uttered, in silence, in the heart/mind of the prayer. That prayer of the heart/mind, ( which is one that seeks unity with God), is one constantly being prayed by the heart mind, even if one has no recognition of it. It is uttered at every single heart/mind beat of the created human being. Being in accordance with it is an act of synergy, accord, acceptance. It is accepting the Grace that is poured out overy every human being, the Grace of the Holy Spirit. One can accept that Grace or refuse it at every instant of life, beginning with conception. It’s obvious that infants are in accord with that Grace only for it to be refused later on as the ego, fruit of the Original Denial of Grace by Adam and Eve, becomes the definition of who one is. Mary did not refuse that Grace at any time. She remained immersed in it, savoring the loving Mystery which is Tri-Une, that surrounded her. She did not have a strong ego although she had a definite personality.
Mary, by being immersed in the Mystery, was able to be free from the duality of sin vs. non-sin. Her holiness transcended these categories. In doing so, she was able to be the New Eve that said, without compulsion, force, or even habit, YES to the angel of the Annunciation.
Even though she was immersed in the Mystery, and was in accord with it, she did not and could not achieve all this by her own powers, weakened as they were by the fruit of the Original Denial or sin. At every instant, she needed the Grace in order to be in accord with it, just as we do.
Only Christ, Who is the source of every Grace, through the Holy Spirit, was able to achieve what Mary sought. He did this by living and dying and resurrecting, triumphing over death and conquering sin, ( which the Theotokos could not do) and ascending the the Father, ( which again the Theotokos could not do).
Perhaps all this is nonsensical babble. to you. But this is what I understand, in my own limited way, what the IC doctrine, ( which is Orthodox, though not in the language of its promulgation ), is pointing to.
The last part of this thread between “Photios” and Michaël de Verteuil has me chuckling.
“Photios” doesn’t give the full story. Orthodoxy is far more complicated than he wishes readers to know.
Bulgakov, Berdyev and Soloviev are still effective speakers for the Orthodox tradition. They are opposed by those that one could style as neo-Byzantines, those who think that only Byzantium had any Orthodoxy.
Florovsky, though admired for his scholarly efforts, was considered to be too controversial for St. Vladimir’s and was urged to leave which he did.
There’s an ongoing “theological war” between those who think that Byzantine theology, ( as understood by Florovsky etc;) is the end all and be all of Orthodoxy and those think that Orthodoxy is more than what whas defined by Byzantium.
Diane,
I see and understand the orthodox position of the fittingness of Christ’s mother to be pure and holy for the reasons you state. I don’t see the IC as speaking so much about her holiness, which we all agree on, but about the method this was attained. I do not think that it diminishes her or Christ to think that her holiness was brought about by the conventional methods of righteous parents training their children in righteousness and obedience, and the advantage of having her righteous kinfolk mentoring her – I believe Zacharias was the Priest in the Temple – to be surrounded by a holy environment, and for her to respond favorably to all these helps with the grace of God helping her. To me it shows how God’s plan should have worked for everyone, thus it glorifies the effectiveness of his plan by showing how all should live. I believe that it is taught by the Orthodox that Mary came along at a time when all the events and circumstances of Israel culminated to produce the epitome of all Saints.
It’s been a while since I’ve read St. Irenaeus’ teaching on Mary as the New Eve, but I believe that the context was pretty specific regarding where the similarities lie. I’ll compare with his inspiration. She said “yes” to Eve’s “no”, Eve is the mother of all the living – Mary is the mother of all Christians, Eve was tempted by the words of the serpent – Mary was brought the curative good news by the angel, Eve beheld and ate the forbidden fruit which caused the fall – Mary beheld her son on the tree whose flesh and blood gives us life.
I do not believe St. Irenaeus speaks about them being similarly conceived. Mary was born of two parents and Eve was fashioned as an adult out of a man only. They are contrasted, not shown to be similar. Christ recapitulates Eve’s birth in that she came from a human man with no mother and He came from a human woman with no earthly father. Mary and Christ undo what Adam and Eve did.
Thank you for your generous clarifications.
I’ve been following this thread at a bit of a distance and I do not have the moment right now to offer substantive comment but I would like to point out to Michael and Evagrius that Photios has not been attacking either of you personally but has stuck to the debate at hand, answering questions posed and for this he himself has been attacked ad hominem.
Michael,
Would you characterize me as “Protestant” for agreeing with Photios?
Evagrius,
I agree with you about the mystery of the Christian Faith. What I feel is the contention here is that Photios, myself, and others who have participated here do not hold that the things being assumed as Orthodox and Roman Catholic are one and the same. I do not believe we hold the same faith.
At times, as Michael has pointed out, this thread has been near the point of “breaking through” to these underlying assumptions and exposing them though I’m not sure Michael would put it as I am now.
Father Lev Gillet himself under which this thread began, if you do a quick “Google” search on him, I think that it is evident that he is starting from an an Ecumenical starting point.
Photios Jones:
198 If Mary was created virtuous, then either a) she pre-existed the body in which her virtuousness was had by an act of will before a fall into the body or, b) God can create a person virtuous without the motion of their will.
? If you are talking about infused virtue (in particularly the three theological virtues), then yes, as infused virtue is not the same as acquired virtue, and it is not only given to Mary, but to all who are baptized and in the state of grace.
I do not believe we hold the same faith.
With respect: I have heard this from Orthodox before, more often than I care to consider. I cannot help wondering whether some of those who make such statements really mean: “I refuse to consider the possibility that we hold [essentially] the same faith.” Forgive my bluntness, but frankly I have never seen a convincing argument that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are poles apart doctrinally and theologically. Those who make such a claim seldom support it with arguments. And, even when they do, those arguments are not persuasive for Catholics, as Michael has pointed out.
I think Our Lord’s prayer “ut unum sint” requires us to look for what we hold in common, rather than for what suppsoedly divides us. I do not minimize real points of division–not at all–but I think we should make darned sure that they really are points of division. IOW: We should not go into the discussion with our minds already made up and shut tight as a drum. Someday we will face Christ Himself. Do we want to do so knowing we have helped perpetuate the divisions that grieve Him so? Do we really want to promote a false gospel of division and exclusion? (I ask this of myself as much as I ask it of anyone here. If not more so.)
Father Lev Gillet himself under which this thread began, if you do a quick “Google” search on him, I think that it is evident that he is starting from an an Ecumenical starting point.
Gasp! Horrors!! Say it isn’t so!!!
But seriously…sure, there is a false ecumenism. But that does not mean all ecumenism is false. How can it be, if Our Lord Himself prayed “that all may be one”?
And I say that as someone who is not really very ecumenical, when you come right dwn to it. But even I, triumphalist Catholic that I am, recognize that it’s futile and perhaps even sinful to constantly look for differences, to manufacture such differences (when they don’t exist), and to exaggerate them (when they do).
Diane
Andrea Elizabeth: Thank you for your gracious response. I am somewhat confused by it, so I will have to ponder it before responding. Meanwhile, I hope someone else more knowledgeale than I will address it. (BTW, I must say I am glad there is another woman in this combox. So often theological comboxes are male-dominated, and that does get a tad tiresome. Not that the guys aren’t rather overwhelmingly impressive…but then, that’s kind of the problem, isn’t it? The overwhelming part, I mean. :))
evagrius: Please tell us more about the theological complexity of contemporary Orthodoxy. I am very intrigued by what you have said about the “beyond-Byzantine” school (or schools?). I suspect that my Internet exposure has been mainly to the Byzantine school — or to what I would characterize as the anti-ecumenical school. If there are other perspectives, I would welcome hearing about them. Thanks!!
“If you are talking about infused virtue (in particularly the three theological virtues), then yes, as infused virtue is not the same as acquired virtue, and it is not only given to Mary, but to all who are baptized and in the state of grace.”
T Chan,
I believe the Tridentine theologians believed the infused virtues, i.e. a “state of grace,” to be a created habitus of the soul. So, my question at that point is, how can you be created with a habitus of grace and yet have a beginning?
Photios
The soul is logically prior to a habit, but I don’t see why this necessitates a temporal priority as well, if both are created by God.
Photios,
““Can you not see that addressing Catholics with this sort of argumentation can only fatally undermine your credibility in speaking for Orthodoxy?”
No not at all.”
This again demonstrates that you do not understand Catholicism. If you have convinced even one informed Catholic that your views of Orthodoxy are normative, I will be amazed.
No, there were always true believers. Guess you failed to read that part where I believe Orthodoxy was being preserved. Last time I checked the Sacraments were dispensed in the Monasteries.
The Apostles set up the episcopate to transmit the faith, not just to administer the sacraments. Transference of this role to a non apostolic institution would imply that the formal structure set up by the apostles was not up to the job. This is betrays a crypto congregationalist ecclesiology that no Church Father would have accepted.
“…Just like that “Protestant” Maximus the Confessor or like that “Protestant” Athanasius who maintained the faith in a world full of Arians (including the Roman Bishop).”
Are we supposed to take a rhetorical hyperbole as a statement of historical fact? Besides, the Arianisers were challenged by their orthodox contemporaries, ultimately isolated from the hesitant mass of bishops and finally excommunicated. The case you are making is wholly different. You would have heterodoxy prevailing unchallenged for centuries.
“It’s not like there were a lot of Orthodox to teach the Orthodox faith in Maximus’ day. You have Maximus and his lil band of followers and a Roman Bishop. Orthodoxy is where the Orthodox faith is maintained.”
It seems rather that you are arguing that Orthodoxy is where *you* think it is (or was) maintained. This reminds me of those Continuing Anglicans who delude themselves that they alone, in a mass of Christian apostasy, have kept to the pure faith. I can accept that you actually believe what you say, but this would imply that our understandings of Church history have too few points of contact for this to be resolvable. I am not sure I would even recognize such an Orthodoxy, hiding out in hermetic catacombs as you describe it, as apostolic, let alone catholic.
Sophocles,
“Would you characterize me as “Protestant” for agreeing with Photios?”
No, I wouldn’t. I don’t happen to think that Photios is a Protestant either.
Psychological dissection is a fraught exercise. It inevitably says a lot more about my perceptions than about the “reality” of Photios, but for what it’s worth…. There are traits of what I see as the theological “cultural” baggage of Protestantism that Photios strikes me as having carried with him on his spiritual journey. It manifests itself in some of the terminology he uses, in often typically Protestant misconceptions regarding Catholicism, and now in his predisposition to accept what could be uncharitably described as a crypto-gnostic ecclesiology typical of the more exclusivist streams of Protestantism. As others have mentioned, no Catholic would be at any risk of mistaking him for a cradle Orthodox.
But he certainly isn’t a Protestant anymore. The Protestantism I was alluding to was one of theological methodology and epistemological assumptions, not of beliefs. I am certainly not going to argue that his theological views are alien to Orthodoxy. I just see Orthodoxy as a significantly broader tent than he tries to portray. So if you agree with him in all things, that would preclude you from being being a Protestant.
Basically, I am forced to conclude that authority carries very little weight for some Orthodox. A mainstream Catholic wouldn’t dream of looking anywhere for orthodoxy but in the historic episcopate. Catholics still have Irenaeus ringing in their ears. Authority is their rule of faith. They believe what they believe because it is what was taught to them. No Catholic could take Athonite rebelliousness as anything short of scandalous. To Catholics, it smacks of gnosticism (in terms of epistemology, of course, not content).
If I had this view of Orthodoxy, I could never consider it Christianity’s other lung. It ust reduces Orthodoxy to yet another Christian sect, one whose bishops aren’t bishops in the full sense. Despite the conventional charge of Papal doctrinal dictatorship, I really cannot stress enough the centrality of the episcopate to the Catholic understanding of orthodoxy (lower case).
If Orthodoxy’s self understanding is that it was reduced for several centuries to a dim cenobite glow, why should Catholics take it seriously? As it happens, Catholics speak to enough Orthodox to realize that this understanding isn’t normative for all or even most Orthodox.
Andrea Elizabeth,
Forgive me for intruding on your “private” chat with Diane. ;-)
You wrote: “I don’t see the IC as speaking so much about her holiness, which we all agree on, but about the method this was attained.”
The “method this was achieved” is not part of the doctrine (except, of course, for its dominical attribution). I really wish it were easier for non Catholics to internalize this. Yes, Leo did express and defend the doctrine of the Virgin’s ever sinlessness in terms that presuppose an Augustinian understanding of original sin. He did so because he was himself an Augustinian. But neither he nor anyone else ever dogmatized Augustinian notions of sin. It just happens to be a strong steam of thought within Latin Catholicism which Catholics are free to reject if it doesn’t speak to them personally. Leo’s concern was to demonstrate that the doctrine was valid *even* in Augustinian terms.
If you believe that by, some divine dispensation, Mary was never at any time in her existence morally separated from her creator, then you believe in the doctrinal content of the IC. Belief in the IC doesn’t require a shared understanding of sin, original or otherwise. It doesn’t require a shared understanding of what the stain of sin involves. It doesn’t require a shared understanding of holiness or righteousness, of merit, of how the soul relates to the body, or even of free will. It also doesn’t require a shared understanding of how exactly or even why God might have graced her in this way.
Even expressed in these terms, there are many Orthodox would would still not assent. Some deny her sinlessness, others associate it temporally with the annunciation, and others place it earlier yet later than her conception. But there are still many Orthodox (though fewer than there were) who, in conformity with most of the Fathers who have anything to say about her, appear to Catholics to see her as they do, i.e. wholly free from sin.
Photios would have us believe that this Catholic perception of acceptance within Orthodoxy is an illusion; that the Fathers have been misread and that Orthodox who would affirm her ever sinlessness are not *real* Orthodox.
216. Michaël de Verteuil:
If you believe that by, some divine dispensation, Mary was never at any time in her existence morally separated from her creator, then you believe in the doctrinal content of the IC.
It does not appear to me that the definition of the IC includes a reference to the BVM’s impeccability. But this is what you seem to imply.
Michael,
I think it is very easy on your part to mistake Orthodoxy for something other than it is just as easily as it is to make misconceptions for the non-Catholic about Roman Catholicism. This charge obviously cuts both ways.
That to you Orthodoxy is the “other lung” of Christianity is where you and I differ and I think this statement to be indicative of the tenuous and uncertain premises from which springs all the difficulties in this discussion and others like them.
And that Catholics speak to enough Orthodox to know this understanding is not normative even for *most* Orthodox is not a conclusive piece of evidence. We all know that the average lay person in both of our communions is not going to have a clue about anything that has been spoken about on this thread not to mention the high theological matters Photios is gifted with understanding and able to expound upon.
In speaking of these matters we must remember the context of our own culture playing into these matters. We all(I assume) have been brought up “democratically” and with the innate belief that truth can be dialogued or voted on. I believe the matter to be otherwise. Truth is not arrived at this way but IS in the Person of our Lord. That we all have in common the belief in our hierchies is evident of this fact. The Bishop of Rome occupies a position of authority that does not take as its source of power a voting body but according to Catholic theology is granted by Christ Himself, no? No vote.
So let us strive not believe we may ascertain what Truth is solely through how many of any given people believe what, though as Diane and others pointed out, one “proof” of the Immaculate Conception can be that so many Catholics believe it simply and only because it was taught them.
It is not my aim with this to imply that that the Immaculate Conception is true or untrue but rather to differentiate between Truth as it is apart from who believes what and that something is true may be evidenced through the sheer number of devotees. Truth obviously can (and does) exist regardless if no one knows it to be Truth.
What Photios was driving at citing the ordeal of Saint Maximus is that in his day indeed Saint Maximus did flee Constantinople to be among those in Rome who were Orthodox, Pope Saint Martin and those with him. Constantinople in her Emperor and Patriarch had ceased from Orthodoxy and taken on another faith which was not Orthodox though similar in appearance which necessitated the Saint’s flight from among those heretics. So Saint Maximus did indeed recognize Orthodoxy: it just wasn’t in Constantinople at this time
openly.
It can be frustrating, again, Michael, when one tries to “explain” Orthodoxy as distinct from Roman Catholicism. Equally frustrating and daunting is trying to explain that Orthodoxy is much more than a belief system or set of rules but is a Living Tradition of the Presence. Orthodoxy has in its center a certain ambience or atmosphere which cannot have words put to it exactly which is perhaps why this observation of authority you cite, Michael, is perplexing to you.
I would even dare say that many(though not all) Orthodox Catholics know what I am speaking about here and though the statement would appear to be “crypto-gnostic”.
I do not wish to speak on the Athonites except to say I would be curious to hear your thoughts more on this matter as I think your motions may be uninformed.
I could easily then reverse your charge towards Photios and ask you then, since Photios is not speaking as a *true* Orthodox you therefore have set your own judgement up to the bar which determines whose statements are Orthodox(capital “O”). So then, what is Orthodoxy?
The title of this post is “The Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox Church”. And obviously using Father Lev Gillet as the spokesman for the “normative” Orthodox position plays into the a priori belief that it is indeed compatible. I think it would be more fruitful if this post did stand but if it was followed by a counter point of one not holding that the Immaculate Conception is compatible with the Orthodox Faith. And if this advice is followed, the choosing of a well reasoned defense of its incompatiblity with Orthodoxy.
To “understand” or to get Orthodoxy I would dare say it requires a worldview shift which is difficult for any of us, including myself and including “informed Catholics”. In my own understanding, I think of myself as Orthodox but also in the process of “becoming” Orthodox.
Authority is different in the Orthodox Church but something is going well that despite centuries of murders, betrayals and persecutions it yet exists. Obviously in a short post as this one I cannot do justice to a full explanation except to say, simply, that Jesus Christ is the sole Authority in the Orthodox Catholic Church. How to explain that to Catholics who have a visible authority in the person of the Pope is difficult to explain especially without raising anyone’s ire.
For me, personally, I enjoy one on one personal conversation in these matters as obviously, as you stated, in psychologically dissecting anyone solely from their statements we may indeed be constructing a false representation of the person. I know, for instance that in my own private life the struggles I have and knowing this about myself I know that you as a person have your own pain and hurt and so on that you have to deal with.
Even though by force of my conscience I cannot divert from the path of Orthodoxy and Her defense, this does not preclude my speaking with love and understanding to those without Her, the Church.
I do not agree with you, Michael but yet I can love you as a brother.
What I am saying is that this judgement falls any number of ways and what you have chosen to believe is that Orthodoxy must of necessity be fully compatible with Roman Catholicism.
With enough dialogue and patience, I think it could be shown that the case is otherwise regardless of how many Orthodox believe that we are the same.
And Diane,
I happen to respect you as well, with your triumphant Catholic stance and all.
I do not look for differences for the sake of looking for differences. Yet I can say, when I encounter Roman Catholicism it is altogether of another “feel” than Orthodoxy. Would it be fair to assume you too get a whole other “feel” when you encounter Orthodoxy?
Just curious.
Michael: “dim cenobitic glow”–LOL, talk about the mot juste. You certainly have a gift for a memorable turn of phrase.
I assume you’re familiar with the Baptist “Trail of Blood” theory. Methinks Photios has just come up with the Orthodox counterpart. ;)
Would it be fair to assume you too get a whole other “feel” when you encounter Orthodoxy?
That’s a good question, Sophocles. Believe it or not, I think the answer is no.
Online I mostly encounter Orthodox polemics. And frankly they sound much the same as any other anti-Catholic polemics — Baptist, Reformed, whatever.
In Real Life, I encounter Orthodoxy only through the sanctuary tour at the annual Greek festival. I take the tour every single time because I love the interior of the local Greek Orthodox church. I love the iconography, which is exquisite. Far from feeling that it’s some alien mysterious world, I feel right at home. When the docent asks whether anyone knows the identities of the saints on the icon screen, I shoot up my hand. (We live in the Bible Belt, so the other folks on the tour are usually Baptists who wouldn’t know Saint George from Saint Michael if their lives depended on it.)
The only stuff that seems foreign and off-putting to me is the anti-Catholicism and anti-ecumenism. And that I encounter not in the sanctuary but at the church’s little bookstore, where anti-Catholic tracts are peddled. Again, though, said tracts do not strike me as particularly mysterious; they employ the same shopworn arguments used by anti-Catholic Protestants.
T. Chan,
“It does not appear to me that the definition of the IC includes a reference to the BVM’s impeccability. But this is what you seem to imply.”
I don’t follow you. Of course Mary *could* sin. That’s part of the point. If she couldn’t sin her holiness would be no more remarkable than that of an angel who had avoided Satan’s fate or, for that matter, that of a peaceable cow or a harmless pebble. Again, the analogy to Eve is central. Imagine Eve as she would have been had she *chosen* to obey all through her life; and there you have Mary.
Michael,
“If you believe that by, some divine dispensation, Mary was never at any time in her existence morally separated from her creator, then you believe in the doctrinal content of the IC. Belief in the IC doesn’t require a shared understanding of sin, original or otherwise. It doesn’t require a shared understanding of what the stain of sin involves. It doesn’t require a shared understanding of holiness or righteousness, of merit, of how the soul relates to the body, or even of free will. It also doesn’t require a shared understanding of how exactly or even why God might have graced her in this way.”
If we don’t share the same understanding of sin, holiness, righteousness, merit, soul, body, free will, or how God gives grace, then I don’t see that sharing a belief in Mary’s purity and holiness is enough. Orthodox are conservative that way.
“Basically, I am forced to conclude that authority carries very little weight for some Orthodox. A mainstream Catholic wouldn’t dream of looking anywhere for orthodoxy but in the historic episcopate. Catholics still have Irenaeus ringing in their ears. Authority is their rule of faith.”
Here is what Irenaeus says is the rule of faith:
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 3, 1, 1)
Authority is not concerned what Irenaeus is concerned with, but rather paradosis. What has been handed down. Authority is only a secondary concern. One must identify that body of paradosis and then be obedient to it.
It was Gnostics who were saying that we couldn’t understand or identify that body of Tradition. There method of trying to say the scriptures and tradition were obscure and that “consitency” could only be had by dialectical methods is alot like Rome’s modern apologists.
“As others have mentioned, no Catholic would be at any risk of mistaking him for a cradle Orthodox.”
Just like John Romanides and the other men I mention, right?
“This is betrays a crypto congregationalist ecclesiology that no Church Father would have accepted.”
If you think my view implies that the episcopacy is in opposition to the monasteries, you are gravely mistaken. Many bishops in the Greek and Russian Church in that day were monks. My view in no way implies a wholesale apostacy by the episcopate in either Byzantium or Russia. You just aren’t familiar with the literature I point you to. The issue in that time is far more complex that I can do justice to in a little combox. My view, which isn’t really MY view as if I dreamed it or coined it, implies no more than a general methodological theme in the way that Theology was being done by a vast group of academic theologians (a lot like much of the academics today), the ordo theologiae was lost and abandoned from most during this time (Why do you think we had a “neo-Patristic” movement? Again you are unfamiliar with what the Orthodox theologians of this century were trying to accomplish.). The way that theology was done during this time is very similar to the way that the ordo theologiae was abandoned between Irenaeus and Athanasius. This in no way implies that I’m “condemning” THAT body of folks or that the epsicopate in that day was just a bunch of heretics. It just means that they weren’t doing Orthodox theology and how to address these questions: Christology did not play front and center. You’re really just giving knee jerk reactions because you probably haven’t done much reading on the topic.
Photios
“The soul is logically prior to a habit, but I don’t see why this necessitates a temporal priority as well, if both are created by God.”
T Chan,
Well I think it would be temporally prior since a habit is dependent on an act of will. To put this in Maximus’ terms, Christ is the only man who does not have a gnomic will because His Person doesn’t have a beginning. There is no “disconnect” between His Person and Nature because His Person has never ceased from the good things (i.e. the divine energies) that He never began. On the other hand, every created hypostasis starts out with this “disconnect” because it must be acquired and harmonized through deliberation and inquiry about the good. This “disconnect” between person and nature is manifest at the moment of creation not only in fallen hypostasis but in UNfallen hypostasis, with the fallen condition only making this worse [in knowledge of the good being very obscure]. This leaves explicable why the two first sets of innocent parents could sin.
Photios
To all who are celebrating the Feast of the Dormition/Assumption of the all holy, most pure, highly blessed and glorious Lady and Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary, may her maternal love and protection of all her children who honor her be with you during this holy Festival.
“evagrius: Please tell us more about the theological complexity of contemporary Orthodoxy. I am very intrigued by what you have said about the “beyond-Byzantine” school (or schools?). I suspect that my Internet exposure has been mainly to the Byzantine school — or to what I would characterize as the anti-ecumenical school. If there are other perspectives, I would welcome hearing about them. Thanks!!”
Well I’ll try by listing some Orthodox theologians I’ve read or heard of and have yet to read in detail;
First, there are those already mentioned- Vladimir Soloviev,
Serge Bulgakov, and Nikolai Berdyaev. There known as Sophiologists but I think the term is overly broad for these. Soloviev died in 1900, Bulgakov in 1944 and Berdyaev in 1948 ( both in exile in France). They are fairly controversial for Orthodox theologians but continue to have influence. I think the reason is that they were cognizant of the need for Orthodox theology to articulate a response to contemporary society and its spiritual ills. Some of their writings are still available in English, ( Bulgakov has been recently published).
A major intellectual source for the three above was the writing of Pavel Florensky, ( 1882-1937), who was an Orthodox priest, scientist, engineer, inventor, poet etc;. A very brilliant man. He formulated the notion of Divine Sophia . His major theological work is The Pillar and Ground of Truth which has recently been published in English. Florensky was imprisoned in the Gulag and killed by the KGB in 1937.
All four were interested, in various degrees, in ecumenism and dialogue with western European philosphy, theology and science.
In contrast to these four, Vladimir Lossky, ( 1903-1958), must be mentioned. He opposed the Sophilogy of the four and championed hesychasm as the mystical theology of the Orthodox church. His writings are available in English and give a good overview of most of the major themes of Orthodox theology. His writings have given rise to some very fruitful debates.
Contemporary Orthodox theologians are numerous and diverse. Metropolitan Anthony Bloom, who died in 2003, was a major figure. He was a trained doctor who became a monk then a priest. He became a bishop and eventually the Metropolitan ( similar to Cardinal) of the U.K. where he lived from 1948. He wrote numerous articles and some books. His little books on prayer are considered classics. He was quite involved in ecumenical dialogue.
Nicholas Afanasiev, ( 1893-1966), is an important theologian. He was primarily responsible for the recovery of eucharistic theology. His influence was widespread and had a major on Vatican II. He influenced Catholic theologians such as Yves Congar. Some of his writings are available in English.
Metropolitan Zizioulas is a student of Afaniesev. His writings have been widely received. He is a bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchy. His theology reflects a dialogue with contemporary philosophy, particularly existentialism. He is involved in ecumenical dialogue.
John Meyendorff, ( 1926-1992), was an important historian of theology. His primary work was on Palamas. He was a student of Vladimir Lossky. His translation of Palamas can be found, in part, in the Library of Western Spiritual classics. The contemporary study of Palamas owes much to his efforts.
Alexander Schmemman, (1921-1983), wrote quite a bit on the liturgy. His work was responsible for much of the liturgical renewal in the Orthodox church and also the Catholic church.
Elizabeth Behr-Siegel, ( 1907-2005), was a theologian who wrote on spirituality and the controversial topic of women’s ordination. She is well worth reading if one is interested in the role of women in the church.
Kyriaki Fitzgerald is an American theologian who is also interested in women’s role in the church. She has written quite a bit on spirituality.
Eva Catafygiotu Topping is another theologian interested in women’s role in the church. She wrote a book Holy Mothers of Orthodoxy that explores this in detail.
Oliver Clement is a French Orthodox theologian who has written quite a bit, some of it available in English. He is involved in ecumenical discussions with Catholics and Protestants.
David Bentley Hart is a contemporary American Orthodox theologian. His major work,The Beauty of the Infinite: The Aesthetics of Christian Faith, has been widely praised.
Of course one cannot forget Bishop Kallistos Ware whose little book on the Orthodox church is still the best introduction to its faith and practice. He’s written quite a bit and is also involved in ecumenical dialogues.
Bishop Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church, is a fairly young and brilliant theologian who is increasing in influence. He too is involved in ecumenical dialogues.
And, last but not least, there are some voices from other Orthodox lands;
Matthew the Poor,(1919-2006) a monk from Coptic Egypt, has written some fine works. He is the most influential Coptic theologian of recebt times.
Mar Ostathios, K.M George and Mar Gregorios, of India, have written numerous books and articles on Orthodox spirituality and theology. They provide an additional voice, one much needed, to the current discussions in Orthodoxy.
These are a few of the many Orthodox theologians who comprise the current scene, as it were.
Sophocles,
“I think it is very easy on your part to mistake Orthodoxy for something other than it is just as easily as it is to make misconceptions for the non-Catholic about Roman Catholicism. This charge obviously cuts both ways.”
That’s not only possible. It’s almost certainly true.
“That to you Orthodoxy is the “other lung” of Christianity is where you and I differ and I think this statement to be indicative of the tenuous and uncertain premises from which springs all the difficulties in this discussion and others like them.”
The pneumatological analogy reflects the Catholic understanding of the Church, and speaks primarily to the Eastern Catholic Churches. Extending it to Eastern Orthodoxy (as to Oriental Orthodoxy) is an attempt at charity (in a non demeaning sense). You may note that my statement referred pointedly to my subjective perceptions and not to an objective reality. Orthodoxy wouldn’t be able to play that role in reality until the schism was healed.
“And that Catholics speak to enough Orthodox to know this understanding is not normative even for *most* Orthodox is not a conclusive piece of evidence.”
There *is* no conclusive evidence. In the absence of any *contrary* evidence, Photios’ thesis could be accepted (though even those circumstances wouldn’t prove “conclusive”). So for Catholics, in the absence of conclusive evidence, it boils down to authority. What *authority* do you, or Photios, or anyone else short of a pan-Orthodox synod that would anathemize those who disagree have to tell Catholics to avert their gaze from a fallen “medieval” Russian Church or from real and existing (if I may be forgiven a Marxist turn of phrase) current Orthodox?
“We all know that the average lay person in both of our communions is not going to have a clue about anything that has been spoken about on this thread not to mention the high theological matters Photios is gifted with understanding and able to expound upon.”
Photios’ musings aside, I suspect you greatly underestimate the theological sophistication of the average lay Catholic who practices his faith. The deeply secularized Church in North America is not necessarily normative for Catholicism. I’m referring to views expressed by Orthodox hierarchs in good standing and with real cures, not some babushka (not that there is anything wrong with babushkas).
“In speaking of these matters we must remember the context of our own culture playing into these matters. We all(I assume) have been brought up “democratically” and with the innate belief that truth can be dialogued or voted on. I believe the matter to be otherwise. Truth is not arrived at this way but IS in the Person of our Lord. That we all have in common the belief in our hierchies is evident of this fact. The Bishop of Rome occupies a position of authority that does not take as its source of power a voting body but according to Catholic theology is granted by Christ Himself, no? No vote.”
I do not come to this “democratically.” The Church is not a democracy. It is literally a *theocracy*. Truth is truth, irrespective of whether and by whom it is believed. I think there is more agreement on this point than you are suggesting. Your characterization of th Papal “position of authority” is awkward at best, however. His Petrine and his episcopal authority are dominical, his primatial authority, however, draws from the consent and acceptance of the Latin episcopate as a whole, not from God. 99.9% of papal authority in action is primatial.
“So let us strive not believe we may ascertain what Truth is solely through how many of any given people believe what, though as Diane and others pointed out, one “proof” of the Immaculate Conception can be that so many Catholics believe it simply and only because it was taught them.”
I don’t think we are faced so much with a disagreement in first instance over what *is* Orthodoxy (as conceptually separated from “orthodoxy”), but rather with what is *not* Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy to Catholics is what Orthodox believe and pray, and have believed and prayed over the ages. What Orthodox believe and pray may be true and more or less objectively orthodox; that’s not the issue confronting us here. The issue is the scope for formal legitimate diversity in the expression of Orthodoxy. On this Photios (or for that matter, yourself) has no particular authority that Catholics should be bound to respect.
If Photios’ arguments were indeed conclusive for, or even persuasive to, Catholics, that would be another matter. But they aren’t. Just because he can find the occasional Catholic theologian willing to engage him on his narrow epistemological grounds and assumptions doesn’t mean his interlocutors accept their trumping validity. Speculative theologians, like philosophers, just like to play with concepts and assumptions as an abstract exercise. They find it entertaining and challenging and are often willing to argue based on assumptions and understandings they don’t necessarily share.
“It is not my aim with this to imply that that the Immaculate Conception is true or untrue but rather to differentiate between Truth as it is apart from who believes what and that something is true may be evidenced through the sheer number of devotees. Truth obviously can (and does) exist regardless if no one knows it to be Truth.”
Agreed, but again this is not the issue I am grappling with. The issue is whether Photios’ characterization of Orthodoxy (capitalized) is an accurate one. As the adjective “Orthodox”, to Catholics, means “pertaining to the members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches”, it involves necessarily looking at what various members of this communion, past and present have to say on various theological issues. It strikes me that Photios’ efforts to simply exclude this or that member in good standing of this communion as not *really* Orthodox is, a priori, methodologically untenable. It boils down to “Orthodox is what I say it is”.
What complicates matters further is that both Catholics and Orthodox (or so we have always been led to understand) believe in a dominically established Church that is both catholic AND apostolic and which, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, *will* transmit the essential divine truths faithfully. “Apostolic,” is understood (at least by Catholics) as representing not only fidelity to what the apostles taught but institutional and sacramental continuity through the historic episcopate. Catholics are thus precluded by their faith and understanding of the Church from accepting the notion that the locus of fidelity would lie outside the episcopate. Obviously if one bishop challenges another, they can’t both be faithful to the apostolic tradition (barring unfortunate terminological confusion). But if there is no challenge and all the bishops at any given time are content to remain in communion with each other, then one must assume that what they teach respectively lies within the scope of the acceptable.
It follows that if *real* Orthodoxy was at any time monastically and not episcopally defined, then Orthodoxy is not a Church in the full sense according to Catholic understanding. It becomes just another sect.
This is not to say that the cenobite Fathers had no role to play in the defense of orthodoxy. But this role was to call an occasionally confused and weak, but fundamentally orthodox episcopate, back to the task of challenging the heretics who had crept into its body, and to purge these heretics if they proved unrepentant.
“What Photios was driving at citing the ordeal of Saint Maximus is that in his day indeed Saint Maximus did flee Constantinople to be among those in Rome who were Orthodox, Pope Saint Martin and those with him. Constantinople in her Emperor and Patriarch had ceased from Orthodoxy and taken on another faith which was not Orthodox though similar in appearance which necessitated the Saint’s flight from among those heretics. So Saint Maximus did indeed recognize Orthodoxy: it just wasn’t in Constantinople at this time
openly.”
I know my Church history. Photios goes further than this, however, by excluding as incompatible with Orthodoxy (i.e. from his perspective, as “heterodox”) beliefs held without formal episcopal challenge by Orthodox bishops and faithful over a wide swath of the Orthodox Church past and present. It just won’t wash.
“I could easily then reverse your charge towards Photios and ask you then, since Photios is not speaking as a *true* Orthodox you therefore have set your own judgement up to the bar which determines whose statements are Orthodox(capital “O”). So then, what is Orthodoxy?”
Orthodoxy (capitalized) is what the Orthodox episcopate and the faithful in communion with it says it is. Where there is disagreement on anything of importance that does not lead to schism, one can only assume an underlying compatibility, and simply ascribe the disagreement as inconsequential or as a difference of perspective.
“The title of this post is “The Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox Church”. And obviously using Father Lev Gillet as the spokesman for the “normative” Orthodox position plays into the a priori belief that it is indeed compatible. I think it would be more fruitful if this post did stand but if it was followed by a counter point of one not holding that the Immaculate Conception is compatible with the Orthodox Faith. And if this advice is followed, the choosing of a well reasoned defense of its incompatiblity with Orthodoxy.”
I don’t see Fr. Gillet as having argued that the IC was the “normative” Orthodox position, merely that it had been recognized, certainly inthe past, as an acceptable one. But I would have no objection to hearing a well reasoned objection. I think it goes without saying that any objection that just excludes a priori from serious consideration those with an opposing view is not “well reasoned,” but merely tautological.
Photios can hold such view if he wishes, but as they are not demonstrably true, they really should play no role in his argumentation. The fact that he has to rely on such reasoning when confronted with plain evidence of Orthodox in good standing expressing belief in the IC, suggests (but of course doesn’t actually prove) that he doesn’t really have a case. Better to offer evidence that Orthodox “immaculists” did and do not understand the doctrine in a way compatible with what Catholicism intends by it. But basing arguments on an ecclesiology that a priori cannot be internalized by Catholics is just so much wasted effort. If you would convince the other side, you must do so on the basis of shared notions, not offer as axiomatic notions the other side already rejects. Where there are *no* shared notions, dialogue is pointless.
“Authority is different in the Orthodox Church but something is going well that despite centuries of murders, betrayals and persecutions it yet exists. Obviously in a short post as this one I cannot do justice to a full explanation except to say, simply, that Jesus Christ is the sole Authority in the Orthodox Catholic Church. How to explain that to Catholics who have a visible authority in the person of the Pope is difficult to explain especially without raising anyone’s ire.”
It might be easier if you accepted that this is a (sadly common) misrepresentation of the Catholic understanding of the Pope’s role. The Pope’s doctrinal authority is merely one of a number of possible expressions of that of the Church as a whole. The Church’s authority is explicitly vouchsafed by Christ. That Orthodoxy should exist without a universal “Petrine” primacy does not excuse this unfortunate habit of miscasting Catholic authority as lying principally in that of the bishop of Rome. You will note that in my rather long and repetitive exposition of the importance of authority to Catholics, I only referred to the Pope once, and that pointedly to exclude the characterization you are now offering.
“What I am saying is that this judgement falls any number of ways and what you have chosen to believe is that Orthodoxy must of necessity be fully compatible with Roman Catholicism.”
I am entirely open to the possibility that it might not be. I have in this post indicated at least one line of argument that, if it can be demonstrated convincingly, would help support a conclusion of incompatibility. There may be other convincing lines of argument that would lead to the same conclusion. I just haven’t heard any so far. Rather it strikes me that there are some Orthodox who cherish certain beliefs and who see these beliefs, or at least their understanding of them, as incompatible with their understanding of what Catholicism teaches about the IC. Are these beliefs in question standard to Orthodoxy to the exclusion of others? Are their particular understandings of these beliefs binding for Orthodoxy? If so, how can this be convincingly established? Have they understood the IC as Catholics understand it? All these questions would have to be answered persuasively before the case for incompatibility could be made. I am still waiting.
That said Fr. Gillet’s case for compatibility is not particularly strong. It rests primarily on possibly contentious representations of the beliefs of a number of Orthodox who are not around to add nuance or to clarify the meaning and intent behind their writings. Still, I do not feel that Gillet’s case, weak as it is, has been effectively rebutted.
“With enough dialogue and patience, I think it could be shown that the case is otherwise regardless of how many Orthodox believe that we are the same.”
Then I owuld invite you to try a line of argument that can resonate with Catholics (not to mention *all* Orthodox). The current one clearly cannot.
Btw, Catholics are under no illusion that they and the Orthodox are the same. There are strong even essential similarities, but though the schism was first formalized and universalized on the Eastern side, and though the Catholic Church may be willing to allow communion to Orthodox in extraordinary circumstances, it would take more than Orthodoxy lifting its bans to reestablish communion. Orthodoxy would have to break out of its Byzantine conceptual prison and internalize and come to terms with the whole of the Patristic heritage, East and West, as well as with the ecclesiological practice in the Church of the first millenium in full intellectual honesty before it could be seen as catholic. This is, of course, not to say that Catholicism has nothing to learn from such a reappraisal. I convey this painful “truth” as a caution in the same spirit of charity in which Orthodox express their expectations of the Catholic side.
Andrea Elizabeth,
“If we don’t share the same understanding of sin, holiness, righteousness, merit, soul, body, free will, or how God gives grace, then I don’t see that sharing a belief in Mary’s purity and holiness is enough.”
“Enough” for what?
I am also not saying that East and West necessarily differ on all these points. I am merely pointing out that the IC can (though obviously it doesn’t necessarily have to) be accepted even *if* views in this matters are no shared. I will concede, however, that acceptance on such terms doesn’t bring us a whole lot closer, and that tends to relative this discussion considerably. But then the IC, no matter how comforting, edifying and compelling to some, just isn’t that critical a doctrine.
“Orthodoxy would have to break out of its Byzantine conceptual prison and internalize and come to terms with the whole of the Patristic heritage, East and West, as well as with the ecclesiological practice in the Church of the first millenium in full intellectual honesty before it could be seen as catholic. This is, of course, not to say that Catholicism has nothing to learn from such a reappraisal. I convey this painful “truth” as a caution in the same spirit of charity in which Orthodox express their expectations of the Catholic side.”
Actually this is being done and it’s being done by both Catholic and Orthodox theologians, historians and philosophers.
At present, I think it’s safe to say that the work has not been fully accomplished and that a lot of scholarly debate rages over quite a bit of the work.
The Library of Western Spiritual Classics has made available a lot of patristic writings from the Greek to Latin and Syriac.
The Sources Chretiennes series, still ongoing after 50+ years, has made available to scholars a huge number of patristic sources otherwise obscure.
There has been a huge increase in patristic studies from Catholic, Orthodox and even Protestant scolars and theologians.
Liturgical theologians/ historians such as Taft, Schmemman, Afanesiev and Congar have had tremendous influence in the recovery of the liturgical practices and understanding of the first millenia.
All these efforts bode well for some real fruitful dialogue and hopefully communion in the future.
Michael,
Were Origenists in good standing in the Church? How about Origen himself? How long did it take the Church to weed out Origen and Origenists until the might and holy and most exceptional Christological theologian Emperor St. Justinian (and his smacking of Vigilius)? And even after that, how many “Origenists” were in “good standing” until Maximus’ writing of the Ambigua and the 6th Council?
“Orthodoxy would have to break out of its Byzantine conceptual prison and internalize and come to terms with the whole of the Patristic heritage, East and West, as well as with the ecclesiological practice in the Church of the first millenium in full intellectual honesty before it could be seen as catholic.”
Good. Let’s start with St. Ambrose. How about his interpretation of Rom 1:20? Ever read it? Where is the program of “natural theology” ? It is no where.
You may want to review comments I’ve written about how I view “natural theology” and its relationship to heresy. This is what Eunomius and Nestorius were doing. It was a secular outlook. “Natural theology” sewed the seeds for secularism.
Photios
Photios,
“Just like John Romanides and the other men I mention, right?”
No, what very little of Romanides I have read does come across as from a cradle Orthodox, albeit an unfriendly and difficult one. You may be of his school, but don’t seem to speak with his voice.
“If you think my view implies that the episcopacy is in opposition to the monasteries, you are gravely mistaken.”
Well, not so much “opposition” as substitution.
I can hardly be faulted, if you fail to articulate your views fully. If you cannot do justice to an argument in a combox, perhaps it would be unwise to raise or allude to it in such a setting.
As far as Origen and his views, I think it’s safe to say that modern scholarship has pretty much ruled that what Justinian thought were Origen’s views was erroneous.
Origen was the greatest theologian of the early Church. His influence is far-ranging. I don’t think the Cappadocians, nor the Desert Fathers, beginning with St. Anthony would have been possible without Origen.
“Origenism” is a fiction of the late 5th-6th century reflecting very little of the actual Origen. Its condemnation had much more to do with politics then theology.
As for Maximus, he actually continued much of Origen’s work. Remember, he wrote 3-4 centuries after Origen. By the time he wrote the Church had explored many of the major areas that Origen had originally explored. What Maximus did was clarify the situation by eliminating antiquated theological views and preserving and developing the most salient ones. It’s hard to see him as anti-Origen.
Origen was a theological explorer, a daring thinker/ theologian. Many of his views were purely tentative and never stated as actual doctrine or fact or dogma. His major intuitions, however, proved to be the basic foundation of Christian theology and spirituality, both east and west.
For reference you can read De Lubac, Danielou, Crouzel, Trigg, etc;
You can also read Mark Julian Edwards’ “Origen against Plato” and the works of P. Tzamalikos who has been writing a series of very weighty tomes on Origen.
“You may be of his school, but don’t seem to speak with his voice.”
Where did you get this from? That seems a bit prejudice.
“Perhaps it would be unwise to raise or allude to it in such a setting.”
That’s why I tried to point you to a work that did this in a more rigorous and exhaustive fashion.
For reference you can read De Lubac, Danielou, Crouzel, Trigg, etc;
Done.
“As for Maximus, he actually continued much of Origen’s work.”
No. He turned the tripart distinction of Stasis, Kinesis, and Genesis on its head. It is a full sweeping refutation.
“Origen was the greatest theologian of the early Church. His influence is far-ranging.”
No doubt, but I’m glad you are showing who your Father is now. Your views of death are out right Pelagian as was Origen’s. Origen was absolutely brilliant, no doubt as is Plotinus, as is Iamblichus, as is Augustine. But he was condemned by the 5th Council and by St. Justinian.
“Many of his views were purely tentative and never stated as actual doctrine or fact or dogma.”
Tentatively true, but then again maybe not. The Church condemned Origen, but they didn’t condemn Augustine (except for some his ideas, but not the person). Why the former and not the latter? That’s interesting question isn’t it? Are you questioning the men and integrity of the 5th Council in doing so? Perhaps you should try to work and understand that line instead of resurrecting him. I understand why RC’s want to resurrect Origen, he has a filioquist structure.
Photios
Canon 11 of the 5th Council:
“If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and *Origen,* as well as *their heretical books,* and also all other heretics who have already been condemned and anathematized by the holy, catholic and apostolic church and by the four holy synods which have already been mentioned, and also all those who have thought or now think in the same way as the aforesaid heretics and who persist in their error even to death: let him be anathema.”
The ironic thing about the condemnation of Origen is that St. Justinian did this based on the authority of St. Augustine that a Council CAN condemn dead heretics. Ironic, deed.
Photios
224 Photios Jones:
Well I think it would be temporally prior since a habit is dependent on an act of will. To put this in Maximus’ terms, Christ is the only man who does not have a gnomic will because His Person doesn’t have a beginning. There is no “disconnect” between His Person and Nature because His Person has never ceased from the good things (i.e. the divine energies) that He never began. On the other hand, every created hypostasis starts out with this “disconnect” because it must be acquired and harmonized through deliberation and inquiry about the good. This “disconnect” between person and nature is manifest at the moment of creation not only in fallen hypostasis but in UNfallen hypostasis, with the fallen condition only making this worse [in knowledge of the good being very obscure]. This leaves explicable why the two first sets of innocent parents could sin.
But not all habits are dependent upon an act of will, especially if those habits by their very nature surpass what human nature is capable of. That is why they are infused by God directly.
221 T. Chan,
“It does not appear to me that the definition of the IC includes a reference to the BVM’s impeccability. But this is what you seem to imply.”
I don’t follow you. Of course Mary *could* sin. That’s part of the point. If she couldn’t sin her holiness would be no more remarkable than that of an angel who had avoided Satan’s fate or, for that matter, that of a peaceable cow or a harmless pebble. Again, the analogy to Eve is central. Imagine Eve as she would have been had she *chosen* to obey all through her life; and there you have Mary.
215 If you believe that by, some divine dispensation, Mary was never at any time in her existence morally separated from her creator, then you believe in the doctrinal content of the IC.
I read ‘morally separated’ here as never having committed a mortal sin since ‘moral’ usually implies some motion of the will, but do you just mean being in the state of grace?
“But not all habits are dependent upon an act of will, especially if those habits by their very nature surpass what human nature is capable of. That is why they are infused by God directly.”
T Chan,
I think that is where we disagree. I don’t think God infuses in us a habitus of grace as if this graces comes *from the outside* of my nature. In my view, grace isn’t what extends beyond nature (grace is natural), it is rather Person that does. If God created Adam upright with an infusion of grace by the donum superadditum, I see not only the inexplicableness of the Fall but also its potentiality. In other words, how is the Fall logically possible in this view? Augustine’s affirms posse peccare, but Original Sin seems to come about by a “leap” as it were. And he has a difficult time in the City of God of unravelling the notion of History and Original Sin, and whether not History is the principle of Original Sin, and whether or not stability is had by being taken up into a timeless moment where all temporality ceases.
Photios
“Photius”, you’re one busy dude.
Why don’t you give yourself a break?
Go sit somewhere outside and enjoy the view. Or take a walk.
Your constant attempts at “refuting” the views of others must be tiring, ( it is to me- it’s like listening to a broken record or a feedback loop).
238
I think that is where we disagree. I don’t think God infuses in us a habitus of grace as if this graces comes *from the outside* of my nature. In my view, grace isn’t what extends beyond nature (grace is natural), it is rather Person that does.
With respect to its efficient cause, yes grace does come from the outside of my nature. Otherwise there is no need for grace, if human beings are the efficient cause.
If God created Adam upright with an infusion of grace by the donum superadditum, I see not only the inexplicableness of the Fall but also its potentiality. In other words, how is the Fall logically possible in this view?
Because grace does not destroy freedom. Just as we can still sin and turn away from God now even if we are restored in Christ.
Also, I do think there is a real distinction between sanctifying grace and the infused habit of charity (as well as the other theological virtues). Some may have identified sanctifying grace with charity in the past, but they do not identify it with faith as well.
Grace is ‘natural’ in so far as it presupposes a nature and enables it to do ‘naturally’ what it cannot do on its own.
“Go sit somewhere outside and enjoy the view. Or take a walk.”
I am. I am gonna go workout and run my dog. Thanks for the advice.
Grace is ‘natural’ in so far as it presupposes a nature and enables it to do ‘naturally’ what it cannot do on its own.
To clarify–
Grace is ‘natural’ in so far as it presupposes a [certain kind] of nature [i.e. rational] and enables an individual of that nature to do ‘naturally’ what it cannot do by that nature alone.
*Your constant attempts at “refuting” the views of others must be tiring*
Isn’t that what everyone has been doing for the last 240+ comments, yourself included?
Michael,
““Enough” for what?
I am also not saying that East and West necessarily differ on all these points. I am merely pointing out that the IC can (though obviously it doesn’t necessarily have to) be accepted even *if* views in this matters are no shared. I will concede, however, that acceptance on such terms doesn’t bring us a whole lot closer, and that tends to relative this discussion considerably. But then the IC, no matter how comforting, edifying and compelling to some, just isn’t that critical a doctrine.”
As you say there is enough difference that we cannot say we believe the same way. It seems that Catholics want us to be able to spin the doctrines however we want just so that we can give affirmation even though we believe different things about them, including that there are more peripheral teachings that affect it and that matter. And even though you all may minimize the importance of your dogmas, we think it necessary to not have dogmas that don’t need to be believed in a certain way, like the filioque, or even at all.
If you all don’t think it is such a big deal, then instead of expecting us to accept these changes and differences, the Catholic Church shouldn’t have put them in the “required” category to begin with. It’s just not the orthodox conciliar way.
T. Chan,
“I read ‘morally separated’ here as never having committed a mortal sin since ‘moral’ usually implies some motion of the will, but do you just mean being in the state of grace?”
To be honest, I stopped using the expression “state of grace” long ago as I found that no two people seemed to understand the term in the same way, and I was thus never sure I was using it properly myself. What I mean is no more and no less than that she was in the same relationship to God as Eve was before the Fall. As to why and how this came to be (beyond the divine hand), I leave to speculative theology. These aspects weren’t revealed to the apostles and so not handed down.
I fear I must follow Photios’ example and depart the field, only in my case it will be for a week or so. And yes, a dog is involved in my case as well.
Just one parting note regarding the historical underpining of Marian devotion. Mary’s assumption is key to the recognition of the importance of her role in human redemption. The assumption, while not unprecedented, underlined that there was something deeply special about her, despite her apparent humility and very modest career as a prophet (effectively limited to the three months she spent with Elizabeth). It doesn’t seem that the full force of Luke’s account of the annunciation (which ultimately he can only have received from Mary herself as she was the only witness) was understood until Mary had passed on leaving no earthly remains. It is then not all that remarkable that a mature reflection on her sanctity does not appear in the gospel narrative. I say this just to demonstrate for those sympathetically disposed the degree to which the Marian doctrines all form a seamless whole.
Until next week,
“Your constant attempts at “refuting” the views of others must be tiring*
Isn’t that what everyone has been doing for the last 240+ comments, yourself included?”
I’m not interested in refuting anyone so much as clarifying what can be common understanding. There’s a bit of difference you know.
“Are you questioning the men and integrity of the 5th Council in doing so? Perhaps you should try to work and understand that line instead of resurrecting him. I understand why RC’s want to resurrect Origen, he has a filioquist structure.”
WQell, the 5th council is somewhat controversial and it didn’t result in the hoped for reconcialition. In fact it made things worse.
Justinian’s actions were quite detrimental.
In fact, if the 11th canon is actually true, ( and there’s some real question as to whether it was actually approved by the council or was added afterwards by “unknown” hands), it ironically presaged 20th century actions in the Soviet Union where people were declared unpersons, their history vanished, ( they were erased from photographs, erased from historical accounts) etc;
The sad result of Justinian’s actions was that a huge part of Origen’s, ( and Theodore of Mopsuesta’s and others) writings were destroyed by imperial edict. Quite a bit of Origen survived but only in Rufinus’ Latin and some fragments in Greek. The reconstruction of Origen’s real theology is still ongoing. The same can be said for the others condemned as well.
I’m surprised that St. Anthony of the Desert was not condemned since his Letters show him to be deeply influenced by Origen. The genuineness of the letters is much less in doubt according to recent scholars, ( see samuel Rubenson and Derwas Chitty).
And Origen being a “filioquist”. That’s interesting if true and would prove how patristic the doctrine is.
Evagrius
Origen did indeed teach the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son. Of course he did so in the context of his outrightly subordinationist Trinitarian theology (nothing unusual in the pre-Nicene context) and I think this is one of the reasons why the Byzantine Church followed the Antiochene school and not the more filioque-friendly Alexandrians in rejecting the Western development.
Hmmm…sorry Photius, but didn’t “St” Justinian have a bit too much blood on his hands (a little matter of a massacre in the Hippodrome) to merit the epithet? (Of course, “St” Constantine was no pussy-cat either…)
Does our passing to other points mean we have said all we profitably can on the IC?
Happy Feast to All for whom this is the 15th of August. Panagia Theotoke soson hymas.
Fr. Paul- I don’t think that the filioque doctrine is exactly what Origen had in mind, nor do I think the notion of subordinatism is really applicable to someone who was at the beginning of those discussions and couldn’t possibly have foreseen the ensuing developments.
That’s the problem with theology. Not recognizing a theologian’s context, what he or she is actually confronting, what they know or don’t know, etc; is not to fully appreciate their insights and their limitations.
I don’t disagree with you. I just think that it’s too easy to overlook context.
That overlooking of context is what leads to peculiar theological contructs.
evagrius: Thank you so much for the excellent information on alternative Orthodox voices. (Alternative to Photios, I mean. ;)) Some of those theologians I had heard of, of course, but others I hadn’t. I was particularly intrigued to learn that there are female Orthodox theologians exploring the question of women’s role in the Church. Verrrry interesting!
Andrea Elizabeth: I must confess I still don’t understand what you are getting at. You seem to be saying that Catholics and Orthodox speak two entirely different (and untranslatable) languages and that therefore mutual understanding is impossible. I just don’t buy that. Forgive me, but I must say it reminds me of what I used to hear (back in my hippie college days) from the proponents of Far Eastern religions like Zen and “hippie Hinduism.” In terms of upbringing and background, these people were as thoroughly Western as I was; the closest they’d ever been to the Mysterious East was when they got takeout at the Golden Dragon. Yet they would give me this “East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet” spiel, insisting that I, as a Westerner, Just Coundn’t Understand the Eastern religious ethos — that I simply wasn’t getting it and couldn’t get it because I was so completely immersed in Westernism and therefore incapable of enlightenment. Or some such nonsense.
Of course I recognize that theological categories and theological language have developed differently in the East vis a vis the West. I think that makes the ecumenical task a little harder — we both must work a bit harder to understand each other — but I don’t think it makes it impossible. I don’t think it makes it impossible because I happen to believe in our common humanity. I think human beings have common yearnings that transcend all differences of language, culture, and so on. If we didn’t, Our Lord’s Great Commission — “Go and make disciples of all nations” — would simply make no sense. How can you instruct all nations if you insist that they all speak one narrow theological language and understand the Christian Faith via only one concepual framework (Byzantine)? Could this insistence on the inscrutability of the Orthodox Way have something to do with Orthodoxy’s historic unwillingness to engage in missionary efforts a la the Great Commission? (Yes, I am aware of the exceptions, but IMHO they only prove the rule.)
A cyber-friend of mine, who is married to a Greek Orthodox, tells me that sometimes his Orthodox relatives speak as if Orthodoxy were a kind of “Zen Christianity.” I must confess that your remarks strike me that way, too. It reinforces the sense of Gnostic elitism that comes through in Photios’s posts.
I don’t know what else to say. I find it all somewhat off-putting. Forgive me.
Diane
“and there’s some real question as to whether it was actually approved by the council or was added afterwards by “unknown” hands”
Evagrius,
No, canon 11 is not in dispute. It’s the fifteen canons on the condemnation of Origen which are in dispute by Western scholars. These 15 canons are very detailed on Origenist views. Of course, those canons are received by the Orthodox Church as well. They just make for a rather “commentary” and footnote to Canon 11. If he’s condemned, why so? Hence the explanation and redundancy.
“WQell, the 5th council is somewhat controversial and it didn’t result in the hoped for reconcialition. In fact it made things worse.”
It’s no less an Ecumenical Council.
With the monophsyites I agree. I’m not referring to the successfulness of the Council. Though I will say it was a triumph of for the Cyrillians of how to interpret Chalcedon. Vigilius and others had to get in line with the Council and stop defending Nestorianizers. There were many ways in which Chalcedon was appropriated and the 5th Council dogmatized a particular understanding of Chalcedon.
Fr. Paul,
Check out JUSTINIAN THE GREAT, EMPEROR AND SAINT By Asterios Gerostergios if you can. Your local seminary library should have it or if you are adventurous enough: 8th day books. And for his Christology check out ON THE PERSON OF CHRIST by Rev. Kenneth P. Wesche which translates 3 main works of his Christology. The first book is more historical and the other strictly theological. I think you might find them a very fun read anyway.
BTW-we celebrate his feast day on Nov. 14th. You won’t find a more solid Cyrillic Chalcedonian. He paved the way cement truck and all for Maximus.
“Origen did indeed teach the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son. Of course he did so in the context of his outrightly subordinationist ”
Very true. He saw the Son and Spirit coming forth in the same fashion from an Uncaused-Cause and Caused-Cause respectively. I wouldn’t say he taught a formal filioque as Augustine did, but the structure is similar. The received Neoplatonism is evident.
Photios
Origen was not a Neo-platonist. That’s a cliche perpetuated by far too many who just repeat it without any examination.
How could Origen have been a Neoplatonist when Plotinus was far younger than he?
Besides this, Porphyry, the biographer of Plotinus did not like Origen.
Origen was not a Platonist either.
Justinian a saint? Ah yes.
And Saint Theodora, too, right?
Nooooo comment.
“How could Origen have been a Neoplatonist when Plotinus was far younger than he?”
Technically true, but it doesn’t really matter. They all had a common body and teaching of Hermeticism in which they drew upon and had access to. Who do you think taught Plato? This is something that is unique to Alexandria and the Egyptian “sacred science.”
“Besides this, Porphyry, the biographer of Plotinus did not like Origen.”
They didn’t like Gnostics either, but that doesn’t exempt the Gnostics from being Platonists either. Plotinus didn’t like the way the Gnostics exasperated infinite entities beyond Nous and World Soul. He didn’t like it, because it was the logical move he should’ve made as well. This is because Middle Platonism is very plastic and moldable. Dialectic can shape itself in numerous ways.
“Origen was not a Platonist either.”
Depends on which body of teaching that we look at. In Contra Celsus and some of his scriptural commentaries, he’s quite anti-Platonic. But in First Principles and as this manifiests itself in other places in his commentaries, very Platonic. Nobody condemned him for a good amount of things that he wrote, but rather for his Platonism.
Photios
Diane,
As far as mutual understanding, I think it is possible for us to recognize differences of expression concerning our faith. I don’t understand what makes one person convinced of one expression while another person is convinced of the other. I think we tend to automatically assume the other person is wrong and thus has an inferior position, so it can be a negative experience to try and demonstrate it. Forgive me if I have insulted anyone.
I agree with your comments on common humanity. Understanding another person takes wisdom and humility, agreeing with them on all points is another matter. I wonder if you believe you understood why your friends chose an eastern religion, despite their still being westerners.
I think one can find some similarities in Orthodox spirituality and some of the far eastern practices, but that speaks more to common humanity than contamination in my view. Most people close their eyes to pray, try to keep their concentration focused, and Buddhist temples even use bells and incense.
Gnostic elitism – I think you’ve said that you use that in the context of special knowledge. Anyone who advances in understanding will know more than one who doesn’t. Does that make him an elitist? May we all grow in understanding, humility and love – which I think even Buddhists promote.
And btw, I appreciated your comments on having another girl in the discussion. I think in many ways we do speak the same language and possibly share common interests in devotion, theology, classical art and music. I’ve focused on Eastern theology since my conversion and now I’m trying to figure out where it finds common expression elsewhere, even in Plato. btw, if anyone thinks I’ve mischaracterized the Orthodox pov here or regarding Plato or anything else on my blog, please feel free to point it out. I’m still somewhat of a newbie.
“A cyber-friend of mine, who is married to a Greek Orthodox, tells me that sometimes his Orthodox relatives speak as if Orthodoxy were a kind of “Zen Christianity.” I must confess that your remarks strike me that way, too. It reinforces the sense of Gnostic elitism that comes through in Photios’s posts.”
(First, let me mention that there is a book, “Zen Catholicism” written a number of years before Vatican II by Dom Aelred Graham, a lovely little book on the encounter between Christianity and Buddhism.)
Diane,
I think you’ve put your finger on as aspect of Orthodox thinking that, when taken to extremes, can result into what you term Gnostic elitism.
A common cliche among Orthodox is that the east, ( Orthodox), emphasizes theosis while the west, ( Catholic-Protestant), emphasize (legal) justification.
While this somewhat true, it can be taken to extremes.
Theosis is understood to be the goal of human existence. It’s participation in the life of the Tri-Une God through the energies of Hod but not the essence of God. This is in distinction to the Catholic notion of beatific vision which sees the essence of God.
Theosis forms the foundation of the Christian faith. The apostles, including Paul, experience theosis and taught their disciples how to attain it. Apostolic succession, through the establishment ofthe hierarchy of bishop, priest, and laity, preserves the transmission, as it were of theosis.
The full attainment of theosis demands full striving and the exercise of asceticism and noetic prayer.
Basically, this is difficult for the laity and others “in the world” so that if one wishes this experience, one needs to adopt the monastic life.
So, essentially, the guarantors of theosis are monks. Bishops are monks so their teaching the clergy and laity proceeds from monastic practice.
Saints, of course, are those who attain theosis on this earth, through either monastic practice or, as often the case, enduring martyrdom, ( asceticism is a form of martyrdom and so is noetic prayer).
Real theology, unlike academic theology, proceeds from the monastic practice of ascecis and prayer.
The west, when it broke away from the east, lost the practice of noetic prayer and asceticism. Theology in the west became a mere exercise of reason, uninformed by prayer and asceticism.
While the west certainly had saints before the schism, it no longer has any saints or holy people to guide it. Saints such as St. Francis were victims of demonic delusion. Saints such as John of the Cross or Teresa of Avila suffered from erotomania. Others were victims of similar demonic visions etc;
Only the monks at Mt. Athos truly preserve Orthodoxy. Only the theologians who fully echo the teachings and practices of Athonite monasticism are real theologians.
Theological expression must be fully Orthodox otherwise it leads to prelest, (delusion), and error. If one thinks incorrectly, one cannot give correct praise and worship, one cannot correctly express the true faith, and one is not really Orthodox, despite the reception of baptism and the other mysteries, ( not sacraments- that’s erroneous).
Orthodoxy is not a religion. Religion is a set of creeds and beliefs that one must rationally understand and consent to. Orthodoxy is a way of life, following the Fathers in ascetic practice, noetic prayer, and litugical prayer and participation.
All other faiths, including Western Christianity, are mere religions. They do not lead their members to theosis but often to error.
Ecumenism, or any dialogue or discussion with non-Orthodox is dangerous since it can result in a dilution of faith. Further, it would result in the acknowledgement that other faiths have some validity. Further, it is useless since one cannot really have anything in common with heretics.
Now, what I’ve written may sound extreme, but I guarantee you that there are Orthodox who fully suscribe to most, if not all, the statements.
I don’t think that Orthodox who have had some exposure to other Christian faiths and other religions, would agree with all of this.
One can finds Catholics and Protestants holding similar views regarding their religious traditions, just as one can find adherents of other religions holding the same views regarding theirs.
“Who do you think taught Plato? This is something that is unique to Alexandria and the Egyptian “sacred science.”
You mean Socrates didn’t teach Plato?
I suppose that the Hebrews weren’t affected by Egypt either, ( or the Zoroastrians of Persia).
As for Origen, what we have of his First Principles is very fragmentary and subject to much debate. Tzamalikos has shown how questionable is the accepted version by Kotschau who interpolated passages derivd from the later condemnations.
As for Platonism, well it was, along with Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Pythagorianism, the current atmosphere of intellectual life.
One might as well denounce the current atmosphere of science, historical reseach, literary criticism, etc; for any theologian who dares to utilize them in exploring issues of faith and explaining the faith to believers and non-believers.
If so, then one might as well separate oneself from the world and just preserve, witout understanding, the words and rituals of the past, somewhat like the poor servant who buried his talent. It’s no use in trying to explain the faith to others using their language. They have to give up their language to understand yours. The onus is on them, not you, to find salvation.
“You mean Socrates didn’t teach Plato?”
Read back again through the Timaeus and Critias and ask yourself again what the origin of this teaching is.
“As for Origen, what we have of his First Principles is very fragmentary and subject to much debate. Tzamalikos has shown how questionable is the accepted version by Kotschau who interpolated passages derivd from the later condemnations.”
I open to the fact that Origen might have been interpolated or redacted. I question the *impact* of that discovery though, if even true at all. He was condemned. Was the Council in error? You choose.
“One might as well denounce the current atmosphere of science, historical reseach, literary criticism, etc”
That doesn’t follow on all points.
As a lay theologian, I DO denounce much of the literary criticism. It has some very dubious starts in the 18th century that a lot of folks aren’t aware of. How about the deconstruction of the bible by western textual critics? How’s that goin? It sure is fun playing on common ground with secularists and atheists isn’t it?
As an engineer by profession, well… :x
“for any theologian who dares to utilize them in exploring issues of faith and explaining the faith to believers and non-believers.”
I do use their linguistical terms, but I do like the Fathers do and gut out the Hellenstic conceptual meaning and plug the term with a Christian concept, reverse gnostic style.
“I suppose that the Hebrews weren’t affected by Egypt either, ( or the Zoroastrians of Persia).”
They definitely tossed between the great cultures of Egypt and Sumer. They modified a large body of Sumerian texts. I suspect that they were…hmm…concealing something.
“As for Platonism, well it was, along with Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Pythagorianism, the current atmosphere of intellectual life.”
Let me tell you something about me that’s probably going to blow a fuse or two in your brain since you think you have me figured out here. I think the Heremetic texts and Plato’s dialogues are basically true. In fact, I take them much more seriously then modern academics that brush them off as nonsense and myth. I also believe this body of literature and esotericism is misunderstood by the Neoplatonists. I think it is perhaps a declension of something else, possibly older. I think there is a movement in ancient civilizations that move like the following triad:
science –> metaphysics –> religion
and then the reversal of this triad following Western historiography in that recovery:
religion –> metaphycis –> science
Just to pump your noodle.
I suspect that the impact of Orthodoxy’s condemnation of philosophy in the Synodikon is one of “concealing” this in their reaction to heresy, much like the Hebrews between Sumer and Egypt. Of course, I’m speculating at this point.
Photios
“It sure is fun playing on common ground with secularists and atheists isn’t it?”
“I do use their linguistical terms, but I do like the Fathers do and gut out the Hellenstic conceptual meaning and plug the term with a Christian concept, reverse gnostic style.”
Photios,
Cannot using “their linguistical terms” be seen as “playing on common ground” to some extent?
“science –> metaphysics –> religion
and then the reversal of this triad following Western historiography in that recovery:
religion –> metaphycis –> science”
By “recovery” are you explaining how these concepts are gutted and refilled? “new wine in old wineskins” is popping into my mind as a possible criticism, but at the same time I don’t think it applies, I just can’t explain why.
I plan on reading more about “hermeticism” as a precursor to Plato.
And I’m not sure if I follow what you mean by “concealing” in both references. I know a lot of this is over my head, but I’m trying to use some of it if I can.
The west, when it broke away from the east, lost the practice of noetic prayer and asceticism. Theology in the west became a mere exercise of reason, uninformed by prayer and asceticism.
LOL…(referring to boldfaced phrase): Shades of 1066 and All That, wherein the pope is described as breaking off from the Church of England at the Reformation.
Yep, evagrius, I have encountered precisely what you have described. And not just online, either. Once, at the local Greek Festival, I purchased a CD of Byzantine chant recorded at the famous Ephraimite monastery in Florence, Arizona (I think it is…?). (I knew nothing about this monastery at the time; I just wanted to hear me some Byzantine chant.)
Well, imagine my surprise, upon perusing the liner notes, to learn that Byzantine chant is the only truly religious and spiritual Christian music there has ever been or ever will be, anywhere on the planet, ever, ever, ever, world without end, Amen. Well, as someone who happens to think that Renaissance polyphony is the music of the spheres, I just rolled my eyes.
(Brief digression: My tastes are too hopelessly eclectic to fit me for anything but the Big Tent of the Catholica: At the moment, for instance, I’m rather passionately fond of shape-note music, which is identified with a religious tradition about as far removed from Catholicism and Orthodoxy as a Christian tradition can be. Yet, for me, it expresses the common, universal yearnings of the human spirit, as summed up in one of the genre’s most famous hymns: “I’m on My Journey Home.”)
Sorry for the digression. Getting back to the res:
Dare I suggest that the gnostic elitism goes even farther, especially among certain converts? I once knew a convert (online, of course…that is the only place where I know Orthodox converts…well, except for the docent at the Greek Festival). Anyway, this gentleman completely exemplified the mindset you describe and then some. As time went by, he opted for narrower and narrower flavors of Orthodoxy; even ROCOR was too impure for him. He spent endless hours online arguing about theological minutiae and anathematizing his fellow Orthodox who did not adhere to his ultra-purist, rigorist brand of Orthodoxy. Finally, one day, pretty much out of the blue, he chucked it all–wholesale–and became an atheist. Just like that. I am not making this up. Now he is as ardent in his atheism as he once was in his “convertitis” Orthodoxy. (And as omnipresent in certain sectors of the Internet, too.)
Well, once I asked him about the gnostic-elitism stuff, and he had a very telling answer. He said that some Orthodox converts (by no means all, let me hasten to add) get a real kick out of reading spiritual and theological works that no one else has even heard of. There is the allure of esoterica…the appeal of being on the Insiders’ Circle looking out at the unwashed hoi polloi.
We all feel this, don’t we? The temptation to gnosticism is very powerful; it crosses all cultural boundaries and transcends the centuries. Everyone wants to be a privileged Insider. Everyone (in his or her nakedly sinful self) wants to look down his or her snotty nose at all the other benighted slobs on the planet.
I used to joke that some converts from Calvinism to Orthodoxy have gone from “We’re the Elect, and you’re not” to “We’re still the Elect, and you’re still not.” But sometimes nowadays I think that they’ve really moved on to: “We’re even Electer than ever, and you’re really, really, really not.”
I wish they could see how off-putting that is to those whom they are ostensibly courting.
Sorry for the off-topic digression…I don’t want to hijack this combox with my reflections on Convertitis. LOL, maybe I’ll post this at my own blog, although I’m trying to keep that bad boy free of religious polemics; otherwise I won’t want to hang out there myself, even long enough to post something.
Thanks, evagrius, for providing a refreshing counterpoint to so much of the polemical claptrap one encounters online. (From all sides, I might add.)
Diane
“Cannot using “their linguistical terms” be seen as “playing on common ground” to some extent?”
Andrea,
Only if I were using the terms in the same way conceptually would I be on common ground.
“By “recovery” are you explaining how these concepts are gutted and refilled? “new wine in old wineskins” is popping into my mind as a possible criticism, but at the same time I don’t think it applies, I just can’t explain why.”
With that Triad and then the reversal of that Triad (the first declines, and the second recovers), I’m actually speaking in a completely different context than Orthodox theology, but rather the movement of “sacred science.” Make sense?
Photios
Andrea Elizabeth:
Thanks for the lovely and gracious reply.
You wrote: “Understanding another person takes wisdom and humility, agreeing with them on all points is another matter.”
I agree. But sometimes, when we make the genuine effort to understand each other, we realize that we do not disagree on certain points the way we thought we did. That doesn’t mean we give away the farm. It just means that we make the effort to see that, in any given case, the other person just may be saying essentially the same thing while using different terminology. Does that make any sense?
Photios,
“Only if I were using the terms in the same way conceptually would I be on common ground.”
Correcting, or filling certain concepts is what I was trying to do with Derrida, but I’ve put him aside for now.
“With that Triad and then the reversal of that Triad (the first declines, and the second recovers), I’m actually speaking in a completely different context than Orthodox theology, but rather the movement of “sacred science.” Make sense?”
If you’re saying that the first starts with science and that’s bad, and the second is the proper method for viewing science then it makes sense to me. I still don’t like the term “Metaphysics” though. The only way I can understand it peacefully is to think of the Incarnational reality of the mysterious union between created and uncreated through the Divine Energies.
Diane,
I read your thoughts on convertitis with interest. I used to be persuaded of Calivinist predestination for a time and I am a bit in reactionary mode against it and may be a bit off-balance regarding Orthodox exclusionism in that respect. However, free will and human responsibility seems a very important distinction between the two, and also impacts Catholic/Orthodox discussions. I’m sure I have erred in snootiness and in a disdaining attitude and I pray for mercy and healing.
“It just means that we make the effort to see that, in any given case, the other person just may be saying essentially the same thing while using different terminology. Does that make any sense?”
I tend to think Catholics and Orthodox mean different things by some of the same terminology, instead of the same thing with different terminology.
“If you’re saying that the first starts with science and that’s bad, and the second is the proper method for viewing science then it makes sense to me. I still don’t like the term “Metaphysics” though. The only way I can understand it peacefully is to think of the Incarnational reality of the mysterious union between created and uncreated through the Divine Energies.”
Forget about what is bad or good or Orthodox theology or the ordo theologiae for a moment, I’m speaking to the historical movement of that body of literature that is considered “sacred science” and its decline and rise. I’m trying to speak to what I believe is the truth of that body of literature.
It draws out some interesting implications and further questions, why do you have such common themes between ancient “religions” from Sumer to Egypt to India to Mexico. STRANGE..
Photios
Photios,
I’ll take your word for the commonalities between those ancient “religions” as I haven’t studied them but hope to at some point. Ben got sort of stuck in the first of the Giza books after 5 chapters which I’m guessing speaks to some of what you’re saying. He found the language “beyond cumbersome”.
By “sacred science” do you mean Plato & co? I wont burden you with explaining its decline and rise. I’m too behind you and Evagrius in these referenced works. Oh, I’ll just go ahead and guess that the decline would be when the early Christians recontextualized it and then the rise with filioquism. But you’re not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater, assuming the platonists’ (not sure about the Plotinus/Plato distinction yet) ideas that support the filioque and maybe gnosticism are bathwater. Sorry if my assumptions are presumptuous.
Oh the Farrell stuff about Giza etc; is really just a big hoot.
It has about as much credibility as the stuff I read in high school concerning Atlantis and Mu or Lemuria.
I suppose, though, that there’s been a big conspiracy to cover up all of this.
Evagrius,
So did you read it? I truly doubt it that you have. In fact, I don’t you’ve read ANYTHING of Farrell.
I wouldn’t limit myself to Farrell either or the reconstruction of ancient philosophy. There’s also the geological and engineering side. As a manufacturing engineer that works on advanced fighter aircraft, what I’ve seen from the data makes absolutely no sense how ancient egyptian’s constructed the structures around the giza plateau. Copper tools? Optical precision? Granite??? Riiggghhttt.
Photios
LOL, OK, I think this discussion just headed into the Twilight Zone.
Be that as it may, I’d like to respond to Andrea Elizabeth’s comment: “I tend to think Catholics and Orthodox mean different things by some of the same terminology, instead of the same thing with different terminology.”
Andrea Elizabeth, that is precisely what bothers me about many online discussions between Orthodox and Catholics. May I ask, with all respect: Are you sure we mean entirely different things? Or is that simply what you’ve been told by the anti-ecumenist crowd?
So often, in my experience, the Catholic position is horribly misrepresented and distorted, so that what you may be responding to is a gross caricature rather than the Real Thing. I see this all the time in Orthodox discussions of the papacy, where online Orthodox polemicists portray Catholics as craven thralls of the Great Papal Bogeyman. Typically they claim that there is no place in Catholic ecclesiology for episcopal collegiality. This is sheer rubbish. It is gross misrepresentation. I cannot put it any other way.
Same goes for the common misrepresentation of the role of Augustinian categories in Catholic soteriology. If you are getting your notions of Catholic soteriology from Frederica and company, for instance, then all I can say is that you’re getting a very distorted picture of what the Catholic Church actually believes. We uphold free will; we are not Calvinist double predestinarians…not even close.
I do not know where your ideas of What Catholics Believe come from, so I do not know whether you have in fact received these distorted impressions. But I will suggest that, if you explore (with an open mind) what Catholics actually do believe (as opposed to the distortions and caricatures thereof), you may find that we are not really saying something entirely different from what Orthodox are saying. Heck, we even believe in theosis — it’s mentioned all the time at Sunday Mass in one of the Eucharistic Prayers (forget which one).
The best source for what Catholics really believe is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I do not know how familiar you are with this extremely influential volume, but I would respectfully suggest that it is a far more accurate index of Catholic beliefs than the polemical screeds of Fr. Romanides, Fr. Alexy Young, Justin Popovich, Seraphim Rose, Clark Carlton, Michael Whelton, Frederica, or whomever.
God bless,
Diane
Diane,
Thank you for your suggestions. I have read sections of the Catholic Catechism concerning Baptism, Transubstantiation, and have heard second hand from Catholics many other things including teachings on divorce and necessary annulment (I am remarried btw and wished to believe that I was really married the first time too, though pretending it didn’t happen had a certain attraction, but maybe that’s just my own idiosyncrasy). I began with an open mind because I wanted to become Catholic, mainly because I admire the Priesthood and monasticism and an authoritative church structure. But then an Orthodox person piped up and explained the eastern story to me – it was on an online forum, which was the first time I’d heard it. I liked the Catholics there and the antagonism was usually Catholics and Orthodox vs. Protestants. not C v. O. But the differences in the Catholic explanations, though delivered by very smart, well-educated people, were off-putting to me, and though I would have “swallowed” what bothered me, I found I had to “swallow” less with the east, so I went with them. And now what I find myself increasingly having to swallow is my own pride. My understanding is certainly not thorough, and my off-puttedness may be instinctual or deluded, but it’s all I have. Sometimes we just go with our gut, don’t we? I know how misunderstood Catholics feel, but neither of us have been able to convince each other. I guess C’est la vie.
Btw, I know that Catholics do not hold to the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, but the explanations put forth here and elsewhere still make the IC seem similar to it in my readings. And I think that Calvinists even argue for a certain kind of freedom of choice that remains too. But having prevenient grace as described by them and in the IC still seems like a hostile takeover, and it makes me “feel” trapped. I know this reasoning isn’t convincing or provable, and if I’m leading anyone astray, which I doubt because of my unconvincingness, or wasting y’all’s time, I’m sorry.
Also, I think the view of passibility and impassibility of man before and after the fall is very important with regard to Eve’s condition. I love what St. Maximus has written on free will and the nature of man and really am not open to being convinced against it. Eve, though born innocent also had a passible and gnomic human will, which was destined to be tested with ignorance as to outcomes. She was immature. Simply returning Mary to that state means that she would also have to face temptation and whether to obey or not. Since we disagree on the sin nature of “innocent” newborns, then it is hard to compare Mary’s comparative innocence. You all say that the IC accomodates an Augustinian as well as a less harsh view of the guilt and sin of a newborn. That really bothers me. We need to be guarded from these harsh views of babies. I had a stillborn baby btw that died before I became Orthodox and was thus not baptized. All I have read from the Orthodox puts Isaac in a much safer place than purgatory or wherever. I do not say that to get sympathy, I do not want it. And I don’t want to be told that there are some Catholics who think unbaptized babies go straight to heaven so I can live under the same huge umbrella. My priest has assured me that since he committed no sins that he is safely with God. I want to stay as far away from St. Augustine as I can because of my sensitivity to these issues. And you cannot tell me that Catholicism is less influenced by him than Orthodoxy. Orthodox and Augustine did not even speak the same language, and that’s fine by me.
Oh, and I found some articles in the online Catholic Encyclopedia pretty innacurate and offensive about Orthodoxy, cant remember the details, plus there’s the Spanish Inquisition, the trial of Joan of Arc, and the Crusades. Just too much to swallow if there’s a better alternative.
Re: Frederica and co. Clark Carlton’s The Faith was my first Orthodox book, and it resonated with me, as do what I’ve read from the others. I cannot convince of my confidence that only the Orthodox maintained the pure, Spirit-dwelt faith, but I feel it, and it makes sense to me. I think that some of the polemical feelings are justified, and I don’t think its because Catholic history is misunderstood. The filioque was entered differently than the truths in the other conciliar councils and it is very obvious when you read how the previous 7 were conducted that it does not enjoy the same ecumenical reception and that’s problem enough. And it’s effects lead to none of the other Catholic councils being ratified by us, temporary desperate circumstances notwithstanding. We have to have done things in the right way, not just by convincing, or not, arguments after the fact. It’s the only way to ensure that the universal truth remains peacefully lived with.
I cannot judge the mission efforts or perceived lack thereof as I have an incomplete understanding. But I know that the Orthodox Church suffered much at the hands of the Muslims, Turks, and other invaders, during and after the Crusades. They have been mainly in survival mode the last 1000 years whereas the west grew to be much wealthier and more “advanced”. I like the Orthodox Alaskan missionary stories though.
Forgive my rambling, ignorance, and whatever else is not healed in the above.
You should read the Online Catholic Encyclopedia with great care. It was written in 1911. It contains quite a few inaccuracies. It does not represent current Catholic theology.
“I love what St. Maximus has written on free will and the nature of man and really am not open to being convinced against it.”
Good. Because he’s a Father of an ecumenical council, the final summation of Cyrillic Chalcedonianism. If one cannot appropriate Maximus the Confessor, is that theology really orthodox? When I read Maximus for the first time, I couldn’t believe what I was reading. No longer could I wear those Augustinian blinders.
Andrea Elizabeth, one question (same as I asked someone else on this thread, IIRC, but it was so long ago I scarcely remember, LOL): If Our Lady appeared to you, as she did to Bernadette Soubirous, and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception,” would you say, “No, you’re not, because that’s not the Orthodox Way”?
OK, just being impish here…. :-)
I’m not trying to convert you to Catholicism. (Well, OK, yes, I am, but I figure prayer is much more effective than words when it comes to that sort of thing.) But I would ask you to consider: If we take seriously Our Lord’s prayer “that all may be one,” then should we not look for points of convergence between our two traditions rather than points of difference? In other words, instead of automatically assuming that Catholics and Orthodox are talking about two entirely different things when they use terms like “grace” or “God” or “sin” or whatever…why not find out? Why not explore, with an open mind, what the other is really saying, to determine whether it might not be compatible with our own beliefs? ISTM that’s what Fr. Gillet was doing. Yet he remained Orthodox, so it isn’t as if he “gave away the farm.”
I happen to thnk that all orthodox Trinitarian Christians have far more in common than otherwise. Otherwise, how could they all be considered Christians? Surely you are not among those radical anti-ecumenists who believe that only the Orthodox are Christians and that all other believers in the Gospel are utterly graceless followers of Satan or whatever? I assume not; that is a relatively rare position even online, in my experience.
As a Catholic, I believe the following: All those who believe in the Trinity; in Christ’s Incarnation, Redemptive Death, and Resurrection; and in the other core doctrines of Nicene/Chalcedonian Christianity are…Christians. They may have some errors mixed into the mix, but they are still Christians. In Vatican II’s terms, they are imperfectly and incompletely joined with the Catholic Church. But they are still Christians. They are not somewhere out there in the outer darkness, where there is the weeping and the wailing and the gnashing of teeth.
Well, if they are all Christians, then, to a certain extent at least, they will all speak the same language. Yes, I know–the Protestants talk of imputed righteousness and forensic justification, and we Cathodox do not. But, when Protestants talk about loving Jesus, surely we recognize that they are loving the same Jesus we do? When they speak about One God in Three Persons, surely we can say, with them, “Amen”? IOW: The very fact that we are all Christians gives us a heck of a lot in common. We do not worship different gods. We worship the same Triune God, and He is the one acting in our lives and in theirs. That means there is a bond among us which permits us to speak to each other, across confessional lines, intelligibly and fruitfully. It’s not as if we are from different planets; the Catholics are not speaking Farsi while the Orthodox are speaking Urdu and the Protestants are speaking Swahili. For the most part, we do speak the same language, and we are capable of understanding each other. Not 100%, sure. But still to a very great extent.
Partly, I think, that’s because God is Who He is, and when He works in people’s lives, well, He works in certain familiar and intelligible ways. Many Christians from traditions other than your own may not be able to explicate Grace in the terms you’re familiar with. But, when they describe how Grace has operated in their lives, doesn’t it sound very familiar indeed? When someone tells you about answered prayer or about consolations received in a time of distress — can’t you relate? Surely you cannot write off these experiences as invalid because they are not couched in Orthodox terms or because the person relating the experience is not Orthodox?
I’m kind of struggling to articulate what I mean here, and I may not be making much sense, but it’s the best I can do at 1:15 a.m. EST, LOL.
Anyway, I am sorry you had a bad experience on Catholic fora. I can relate, as I’ve had very bad experiences with online Orthodox, some of whom outdo even the online atheists in stunningly vicious nastiness. (Thankfully no one currently posting on this blog is among these cads. I have learned to avoid the people in question, which means I studiously avoid the fora where they hang out.) I pray we can both be healed of the bad effects of exposure to online apologetics. :-)
And evagrius is right: The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia does not reflect current Catholic thought re the Orthodox. The basic contemporary Catholic view is that Catholics and Orthodox have a ton in common and are very close to each other. Close doesn’t mean we are already united. But it does mean, as recent Vatican documents put it, that there “lacks little” to bring us together. That is the Catholic view, and I think (I hope!) you will find it reflected in most Catholic online discussions with Orthodox.
In general, I think, you would be hard put to find Catholics online (except for a few ultra-ultra-trads) who treat the Orthodox as negatively, uncharitably, and unecumenically as the Orthodox routinely treat us Catholics (online, I mean, not in Real Life). I could give you examples that would make your hair curl, but cui bono? In any case, that’s neither here not there. What matters is that we on this board, at least, make a genuine attempt to understand and love each other in Christ.
Diane
Well said, Diana.
Question: At 275 comments, have we said everything that needs to be said about the Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox Church? :-)
I’m usually sick of these discussions after, say, 75 or 80 comments. This discussion has been different. Most of the comments were very informative and edifying.
This is exactly the reason why this blog exists. Many thanks!
Diana,
If I got a vision, I would expect it to be consistent with previously revealed truth. We are instructed to be skeptical about our visions as people can misinterpret them. I do not know what to make of St. Bernadette’s. I am always very interested to hear of encounters and miracles though. She seems like a very sweet and pure girl, from what I’ve read and seen and the pictures of her incorrupt body.
And I don’t want to be the one to judge who is saved or even a Christian or who is not – as if I could. I am just glad the correct explanations and examples and practices have been preserved and I pray I grow in conformity with them.
I have enjoyed participating in this discussion. Thank you.
I’d like to thank Fr. Paul, T Chan, Ed de Vita, and Michael for a good discussion. There was some heat at times, but we all learned something. And I hope we came away from this discussion in better understanding of each others starting points. Many years to all of you.
Photios
If I got a vision, I would expect it to be consistent with previously revealed truth.
Me, too. :-) That is partly what’s so impressive about Lourdes: It actually confirmed and corroborated the IC dogma, which had been officially proclaimed by the Vatican four years earlier. Kinda like Heaven’s seal of approval, so to speak.
Have you ever seen the old-timey movie The Song of Bernadette? (You can rent or buy it almost anywhere.) It’s not as strictly historically accurate as the much more recent Bernadette, featuring soap star Sydney Penny. But it’s a much better movie, partly because Sydney Penny can’t act whereas Jennifer Jones could. Anyway, it’s about 99% historically accurate, and the few lapses (for dramatic effect) don’t impinge on the central facts of the case. It’s a fabulous movie…you would love it.
And, on that note, I will echo Photios’ thanks to all and bow out of the discussion.
In the Immaculata,
Diane
“I’d like to thank Fr. Paul, T Chan, Ed de Vita, and Michael for a good discussion. There was some heat at times, but we all learned something. And I hope we came away from this discussion in better understanding of each others starting points. Many years to all of you.”
Thank you Photios. While I dropped out of the conversation mid-way (just got too busy with other things), I must say that it was a stimulating one. While I remain very much committed to the truth of IC, your critique did allow me to see some of the weaknesses in the western formulation. So, I thank you for that. May God bless you and yours and all those who cared enough about the holy Mother of God to participate in this discussion (and a special blessing to Diane who, I can see, has a great devotion to our Blessed Mother).
Ed
I think all who participated received some wisdom through having to reflect.
I hope that the irenic Spirit which shone through continues to do so in all our lives.
Thank you, Ed de Vita, Father Paul, and everyone else. (Blush!)
I guess the discussion is now over. I look forward to another good one. Thank you to everyone who participated!
Despite this discussion being unofficially or officially closed, I will add my major reservation with the IC for whoever might be reading.
If we take Irenaeus’ and Athanasius’ time-honored title for Mary as the “reversal of Eve” seriously, then I think it militates against the IC. Eve was born in a state of innocence and, along with Adam, fell into a state of sinfulness. It seems to me to be more truly a reversalof Eve if Mary was born into the same state of woundedness that we all are, but, through the grace released by Christ’s Atonement, gradually achieved a state of sanctity until, at the Annunciation, she was completely and irrevocably cleansed of sin. Remember that in biblical language the one who has been forgiven sin is as if they had never sinned, so it would be completely appropriate to refer to her as sinless, because that was her final state.
Also, in response to Diane’s many posts, I do not think a private revelation which may or may not be authentic is a compelling reason to accept a dogma. Joe
OK, I think Joe’s shot at the Immaculata has hereby reopened the discussion.
Thankfully, he has reopened it in a forum in which personal insults are not tolerated and all views (including the Catholic one) are respected and permitted.
IOW: a level playing field. For a change.
Ergo….
Bring it on! :D
God bless,
Diane
Sorry, but I think it’s time to close the combox.
[…] by St. Maximus, and the western view, influenced by St. Augustine, are compared. I ventured into the second one over the weekend. It reminded me how engaging these back and forths can be. I actually learned […]