Fr Gregory Jensen has posted this Press Release from the Ecumenical Patriarchate:
With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made. The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.
At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
This, of course, makes complete sense, whereas the early reports definitely did not. Both Catholics and Orthodox believe firmly that unity in matters of faith must be accomplished before there is full communion. Now, I’d still like to know what exactly Bartholomew said that was so misconstrued by the original reporter.
[...] That makes everything in a prior post become mere silly speculation, but that was expected. [via Eirenikon] No [...]
I am very pleased with the “correction.” It is interesting to note that the Phanar took quite a while to issue this correction. But in any event they have issued it and said the right things.
ICXC
John
[...] Overeducated readers can check out the original Greek here. If you poor things only read English and Russian, you’ll have to be content with the translations here. And of course, don’t miss out on the discussions starting up over at Koinonia and Eirenikon. [...]
This is slightly off-topic, but I’ve started wondering something lately. I broach it with great trepidation.
Could it be that Moscow’s pretensions will drive the Ecumenical Patriarch closer and closer to Rome? Is that in fact what we are seeing, in its earliest stages?
Hitherto I never would have dared even think of such a thing. But that photograph of the pope and the EP praying together is such a powerful image…it has put all sorts of daring dreams into my head!
I will note in the interest of fairness that, based on what I’ve heard of Moscow’s position, they would not themselves characterize it as “Moscow’s pretensions” but rather “Moscow’s reaction to Constantinople’s pretensions”.
At any rate, I think the answer to your question is “no”, as I think His Holiness’ book Encountering the Mystery would make clear. He’s going after whatever political protection and advocacy he can muster right now, first and foremost. After reading that book, I think the EP’s actions make far more sense when one considers them in light of what he’s dealing with in Turkey.
Richard
Well, Richard, re Moscow’s versus Constantinople’s pretensions — that’s in the eye of the beholder! If I were Greek Orthodox, I’d be fairly alarmed by some of the stuff coming out of Moscow these days. ;)
Well, Richard, re Moscow’s versus Constantinople’s pretensions — that’s in the eye of the beholder!
Which is why I phrased it exactly as I did, that “…they would not themselves characterize it as ‘Moscow’s pretensions’ but rather ‘Moscow’s reaction to Constantinople’s pretensions’.”
Moscow is rather alarmed at what they hear coming out of Constantinople, too. There are multiple sides to the story. The EP is not automatically in the right by virtue of being the EP (nor is he automatically in the wrong, to be clear).
Richard
Fair enough, Richard. But you can perhaps see why a Catholic like myself would feel more comfortable with what the EP is doing than with what Moscow is doing. :) At least the EP seems to care about that “Ut unum sint” stuff.
A propos of which, I am alarmed to read he following in the latest post (right above this one):
This comes just a day after a representative of the Moscow Patriarchate advised Orthodox believers not to pray with members of other Christian confessions.
Not to pray with members of other Christian confessions? Say what? Do we Catholics have cooties or something?
This reminds me of what a former Orthodox (now atheist; long story) gentleman told a Catholic (not me, another Catholic) on an online forum several years ago. The Catholic asked the then-Orthodox fellow: “If you were to dine at my home, would you say Grace with me?” The Orthodox said no.
I was stunned by that comment at the time, but I never dreamed it was representative.
Thank God for the Ecumenical Patriarch!
Diane
Again, perspective is everything. From what I have heard of Moscow’s position, it is by no means that they don’t care about unity, just that they are committed to unity not occurring under false pretenses — and perhaps that we’ve got to get our own house in order and get our own story straight before we’ve got any business discussing the matter with anybody else. There are reasons they see it this way, and there may or may not be reasons to disagree with their position or to characterize it as one thing or another, but an attempt to see things from their perspective might be useful when it comes to trying to understand their position with charity.
Regarding not praying with non-Orthodox — this comes from a strict reading of canons which forbid praying with heretics and schismatics, and a strict definition of heretics and schismatics as those with whom one is not in communion. Apostolic Canon LXV, for example: “If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.” Or Canon XXXIII of Laodicea (ratified by Constantinople II, I believe): “One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics.” There is a range of interpretation of these particular canons, all the way from saying we shouldn’t even go into each other’s churches or say a prayer at a meal together, to saying that as long as we’re not communing at each other’s services, no harm done. This particular statement by this particular representative of the MP represents one view; there are other people in other patriarchates which represent other views. There are Russians who have no problem saying grace at the table with non-Orthodox; there are Greeks who would be horrified to have a non-Orthodox even enter the nave. (And the Antiochians will be more than happy to sell candles to whomever the Greeks turn away. Thank you, I’m here all week…)
“Representative” is a very tricky word to use when it comes to these things.
Richard
“Representative” is a very tricky word to use when it comes to these things.
Yes, so I gather. Yet one more reason why I’m grateful to have a Magisterium (cf. the VCII Decree on Ecumenism).
For the record, you are more than welcome to enter my parish church’s nave and to pray with us. :)
Many thanks, and you at mine.
There’s no doubt that the way we do things is messier. I don’t know that anybody would deny that.
Richard
“From what I have heard of Moscow’s position, it is by no means that they don’t care about unity, just that they are committed to unity not occurring under false pretenses — and perhaps that we’ve got to get our own house in order and get our own story straight before we’ve got any business discussing the matter with anybody else.”
A Gordian knot, this, for there will never be a time, until the Parousia, when this will happen.
Someone’s got to cut the knot sometime.
You make a good point, evagrius. If churches must wait until they get their own acts together before they take real steps toward Christian unity, then we can forget all that “ut unum sint” stuff, because it’s a hopeless case. We’ll be waiting forever. And I don’t think that’s what Our Lord had in mind when He earnestly prayed that all may be one.
Can we afford to wait until the Eschaton before we work todard reunion? No, IMHO. Our divisions are a horrible scandal and a huge stumbling-block for world evangelization. Shame on us if we put off the project of Christian reconciliation!
It is possible to clean house internally while simultaneously reaching out to separated brothers and sisters. The Catholic Church is engaged in just such a two-pronged enterprise at this very moent. It seems Patriarch Bartolomeos is as well. God bless him. I seem to recall Someone saying, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” I for one will cast my lot with the peacemakers. :D
And BTW, Richard, thank you most kindly for the welcome to pray at your parish church. I appreciate that deeply, and I did not want to appear ungracious. If I am ever up near your way (which could happen; I have relatives in your state), I will be happy to look up your parish.
Diane: please do. http://www.allsaintsbloomington.org.
Here’s the thing — no hierarch can impose a unity from the top down. That’s a one-way ticket to lots of faithful people being scandalized and lots and lots of schisms. You want to cut the Gordian knot, that isn’t the way to do it in any kind of a lasting manner. Florence, if nothing else, proved that.
What I firmly believe — reinforced by what I saw at the Fellowship of Ss. Alban & Sergius conference last month — is a) that the hierarchy can only recognize a unity which the people have already established and, while it may seem like a contradiction, b) that words like “dialogue” and “concelebration” are out of the pay grade of most of us normal people. To that end, c) we’re all going to be a lot better off focusing on cooperation and conversation. There are things we can do and things we can talk about as people in the trenches, it seems to me, which are going to be far more productive to the cause of unity than arguing about theological matters which are, frankly, out of any of our hands. To put it another way, I can’t suddenly decide that a Roman Catholic can receive communion at my parish under the Patriarch of Antioch, nor can I do anything about issues of created vs. uncreated grace, but what I can do is serve with a Roman Catholic at a Crisis Pregnancy Center (although in this town, probably not, since the CPC has a formal statement of faith which essentially excludes RCs or EOs). As a musician, I can put together a schola made up of other musicians who are themselves either Orthodox or Catholic and we can learn chants out of the Liber Usualis and/or selections from the Byzantine repertoire. (Yes, Diane, maybe even shapenote. I’ll have to show you sometime my shapenote-esque setting of “O Gladsome Light”.) And so on.
Things like this might foster greater unity among the laypeople which *might* give the hierarchs more of an impetus to have something to talk about, and to do so productively. (There’s also something I could say about acknowledging one of the many enemies common which are out there, but I’m trying to focus on more positive topics.)
Just a thought.
Richard
Diane,
What you witnessed recently has been going on since the days of Paul VI, and John Paul II. Now with Ewtn and the internet we are more aware of it.
Diane,
It is worth noting that it is only since Vatican II that the view that praying (especially in public or liturgical services) with Christians not in communion with Rome was acceptable became clearly licit according to the Vatican. The common teaching before that was that this was not only forbidden, but forbidden by divine Law irreformably. That is what Rome used to say, and the standard works on moral theology held that line. So, given that it is only in the last 50 years or so that the contrary view has prevailed, whereas this more ecumenical view has been commonly acted upon long before that in other Churches (Orthodox, Anglican, Evangelical, etc.), it is not really appropriate to skite about the wonders of Roman consistency due to its Magisterum’s more unified organisation and action. After all, consistency across time or getting the answer right earlier rather than later are also considerations.
In looking at the Moscow Patriarchate’s apparent “hard-line”
stance towards “praying with the Orthodox” and the like, we should not forget that the MP is taking these stances partly to avert further schisms inside its ranks.
Most Catholics are unaware that, since the 1990’s, the Russian Orthodox Church has suffered from several schisms by the “True Orthodox”, the largest of which is the “True Orthodox” jurisdiction of Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal. There are also many “True Orthodox” groups that trace their origin from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR). These True Orthodox have split mainly over the issues of “Sergianism” and — of course — Ecumenism. In the same way, the Georgian and Bulgarian Orthodox Churches have withdrawn from the WCC not because of any “anti-heterodox” sentiments, but precisely to avoid major schisms by anti-ecumenists in their ranks.
Last but not the least: the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR), which reunited with Moscow last year, is severely anti-ecumenical, and has made clear that it will not cease to articulate its critical stance towards ecumenism.
Then, there was the recent defrocking of MP bishop Diomid of Chukotka, who was expelled partly for advocating an end to all dialogue with other faiths.
Under the circumstances, I think we should be grateful that the Moscow Patriarchate is even talking to us Catholics at all.
but forbidden by divine Law irreformably
Citations, please, Father. Thank you!
-Diane