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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;The Fathers Gave Rome the Primacy&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Towards Orthodox-Catholic Reconciliation</description>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-506</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for your suggestions, Dr. Tighe and Eirenikon.  Sorry for the thread interruption -</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your suggestions, Dr. Tighe and Eirenikon.  Sorry for the thread interruption -</p>
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		<title>By: Eirenikon Editor</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Eirenikon Editor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Though they really don&#039;t fit into the category of &quot;pro&quot; or &quot;anti&quot; (nor are they particularly systematic), I would highly recommend:

* Olivier Clement&#039;s &lt;em&gt;You Are Peter: An Orthodox Theologian&#039;s Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy&lt;/em&gt; (New City Press, 2003).

* Aidan Nichols&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Rome and the Eastern Churches: A Study in Schism&lt;/em&gt; (T. and T. Clark, 1991). This one isn&#039;t entirely about the Papacy, but it does contain a very thorough and fair overview of the problem from a Catholic perspective. It is out of print and exceedingly rare (though I vaguely remember hearing that Fr Nichols is preparing a new edition).

&lt;strong&gt;Update&lt;/strong&gt; – According to the following link, Ignatius Press will publish the revised, updated edition of Fr Nichols&#039;s book: http://insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2008/06/a-pearl-in-the.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though they really don&#8217;t fit into the category of &#8220;pro&#8221; or &#8220;anti&#8221; (nor are they particularly systematic), I would highly recommend:</p>
<p>* Olivier Clement&#8217;s <em>You Are Peter: An Orthodox Theologian&#8217;s Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy</em> (New City Press, 2003).</p>
<p>* Aidan Nichols&#8217;s <em>Rome and the Eastern Churches: A Study in Schism</em> (T. and T. Clark, 1991). This one isn&#8217;t entirely about the Papacy, but it does contain a very thorough and fair overview of the problem from a Catholic perspective. It is out of print and exceedingly rare (though I vaguely remember hearing that Fr Nichols is preparing a new edition).</p>
<p><strong>Update</strong> – According to the following link, Ignatius Press will publish the revised, updated edition of Fr Nichols&#8217;s book: <a href="http://insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2008/06/a-pearl-in-the.html" rel="nofollow">http://insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2008/06/a-pearl-in-the.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: William Tighe</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>William Tighe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Phil (#6),

If you mean by your question (which you probably do not) a historical as well as theological one, I would say:

PRO

*Communio: Church and Papacy in Early Christianity* by Ludwig Hertling, SJ (Loyola University Press, 1972)

*Jurisdiction in the Early Church: Episcopal and Papal* by Dom Gregory Dix (London, 1975: Church literature Association)

ANTI (Orthodox)

*The Primacy of Peter in the Orthodox Church,* by Afanassiev, Kolouzmine, Meyendorff and Schmemann.  Originally published in 1961 by Faith Press, London and lately reprinted by St. Vladimir&#039;s Seminary Press

HISTORICAL

*The Church and the Papacy* by Trevor Gervase Jalland (London, 1946: SPCK).  This is a big detailed book by a moderately pro-papal Anglican clergyman that focuses on the first seven centuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil (#6),</p>
<p>If you mean by your question (which you probably do not) a historical as well as theological one, I would say:</p>
<p>PRO</p>
<p>*Communio: Church and Papacy in Early Christianity* by Ludwig Hertling, SJ (Loyola University Press, 1972)</p>
<p>*Jurisdiction in the Early Church: Episcopal and Papal* by Dom Gregory Dix (London, 1975: Church literature Association)</p>
<p>ANTI (Orthodox)</p>
<p>*The Primacy of Peter in the Orthodox Church,* by Afanassiev, Kolouzmine, Meyendorff and Schmemann.  Originally published in 1961 by Faith Press, London and lately reprinted by St. Vladimir&#8217;s Seminary Press</p>
<p>HISTORICAL</p>
<p>*The Church and the Papacy* by Trevor Gervase Jalland (London, 1946: SPCK).  This is a big detailed book by a moderately pro-papal Anglican clergyman that focuses on the first seven centuries.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-501</guid>
		<description>Perhaps this is an inappropriate place to ask this question; if so, I apologize.

What, in anybody&#039;s opinion, is the best systematic apology (book, website, article, whatever) both for the Catholic view of primacy, and against it (or for the Orthodox view, if you prefer)?

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this is an inappropriate place to ask this question; if so, I apologize.</p>
<p>What, in anybody&#8217;s opinion, is the best systematic apology (book, website, article, whatever) both for the Catholic view of primacy, and against it (or for the Orthodox view, if you prefer)?</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. J.</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-500</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-500</guid>
		<description>Prof. Tighe, you are quick in every sense of the word.  Thanks.

I would be interested in your ideas (or anyones) on how the 5th century arguments for and against Constantinopolitan prerogatives impinge upon those later exercised by Constantinople following the schism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Tighe, you are quick in every sense of the word.  Thanks.</p>
<p>I would be interested in your ideas (or anyones) on how the 5th century arguments for and against Constantinopolitan prerogatives impinge upon those later exercised by Constantinople following the schism.</p>
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		<title>By: William Tighe</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>William Tighe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-499</guid>
		<description>&quot;Now, it is true that the Second Ecumenical Council accorded Constantinople second place of honor behind Rome based not on theological or historical grounds, but on imperial ones. But, I think we can all agree that there is a serious qualitative difference between honor and jurisdiction, for if not there would not be a divided Church today. So, what can justify elevation for honor may not, and in this case cannot, justify an elevation of jurisdiction.&quot;


And, in any case, Rome refused to recognize the Council of Constantinople of 381 as an &quot;ecumenical council&quot; until Pope John II did so, rather offhandedly, in 534.  Previous popes such as Leo, Gelasius and Hormisdas had refused to do so in strong terms -- and, of course, they were historically correct, as that 381 meeting had merely been an Eastern synod, with corresponding Western ones in Rome in 382 and 383, one of which had both rejected Constantinople&#039;s elevation to second rank and explicitly rejected the idea that a see&#039;s standing in the ecclesiastical rank was due to its secular status (and asserting that Rome&#039;s primacy was due to no synod, but to the will of Christ expressed through St. Peter), while at the same time accepting the revised version of the Nicene Creed that is associated with the 381 Constantinopolitan council.

At times I am rather inclined to regret that Rome altered its stance in 534.  More curious still, however, is the fact that Alexandria which also, and for understandable reasons, rejected the ecumenical status of Constantinople I, only recognized its ecumenical status later still -- in the Seventh Century (both Copts and Chalcedonian alike).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now, it is true that the Second Ecumenical Council accorded Constantinople second place of honor behind Rome based not on theological or historical grounds, but on imperial ones. But, I think we can all agree that there is a serious qualitative difference between honor and jurisdiction, for if not there would not be a divided Church today. So, what can justify elevation for honor may not, and in this case cannot, justify an elevation of jurisdiction.&#8221;</p>
<p>And, in any case, Rome refused to recognize the Council of Constantinople of 381 as an &#8220;ecumenical council&#8221; until Pope John II did so, rather offhandedly, in 534.  Previous popes such as Leo, Gelasius and Hormisdas had refused to do so in strong terms &#8212; and, of course, they were historically correct, as that 381 meeting had merely been an Eastern synod, with corresponding Western ones in Rome in 382 and 383, one of which had both rejected Constantinople&#8217;s elevation to second rank and explicitly rejected the idea that a see&#8217;s standing in the ecclesiastical rank was due to its secular status (and asserting that Rome&#8217;s primacy was due to no synod, but to the will of Christ expressed through St. Peter), while at the same time accepting the revised version of the Nicene Creed that is associated with the 381 Constantinopolitan council.</p>
<p>At times I am rather inclined to regret that Rome altered its stance in 534.  More curious still, however, is the fact that Alexandria which also, and for understandable reasons, rejected the ecumenical status of Constantinople I, only recognized its ecumenical status later still &#8212; in the Seventh Century (both Copts and Chalcedonian alike).</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. J.</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-498</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;... For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.&lt;/i&gt; And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (isa presbeia) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her ...&quot;

Perhaps I am the only one interested in this discussion at this time, but there are some interesting facets to it.

First, &quot;Canon 28&quot; is a bit of a misnomer as it is not canonical.  There isn&#039;t a Canon 28 for Chalcedon 451.  But, this proposed canon perhaps could give an indication of Eastern thought on the Primacy of Rome and the hoped for primacy of Constantinople as Bp. Hilarion suggests, or could it?

The article of this post, &quot;The Fathers Gave Rome the Primacy&quot; and the apologetic summary I link to in Comment 2, look at the penumbra of communications around Chalcedon 451 which tell a different story.

Without rehearsing the additional references found in the article and the link above, one can summarize that, in fact, it was most common for ecclesiastics East and West to refer to the See of Rome in Petrine rather than imperial terms.  That is, no one seems inclined to address the papacy as the See of the First Imperial Capital, but rather as the See of Peter, the Apostolic See, etc.  This is born out not only in the  communications surrounding this Council but is the standard practice among Christians throughout history.

So, why would this proposed and rejected canon imply that Rome is the first See only because of its location in the imperial capital?  The motivation is obvious.  It is the only justification possible for elevating Constantinople which was neither ancient at the time, nor apostolic.  It would surely be convenient for Constantinople to have this new status because of its importance at the time.  But, this is not a theological justification for such a shift.

Now, it is true that the Second Ecumenical Council accorded Constantinople second place of honor behind Rome based not on theological or historical grounds, but on imperial ones.  But, I think we can all agree that there is a serious qualitative difference between honor and jurisdiction, for if not there would not be a divided Church today.  So, what can justify elevation for honor may not, and in this case cannot, justify an elevation of jurisdiction.

So, far from revealing, as Bishop Hilarion suggests (in his talk at the recent SVS Conference--see http://ancientfaith.com/specials/svs_jan2008/ ), the mind of the Eastern Church on the significance of Rome, this rejected canon only reveals a failed justification for the See of Constantinople&#039;s jurisdiction at the time.

The other question that comes to mind is Bishop Hilarion&#039;s motivation in asserting that this canon reveals the East&#039;s understanding of Roman Primacy.  It is not good form to assign motives to living persons, so I won&#039;t.  But, it does seem that this is one of the essential leaps necessary to justify 3rd Rome which also lacks apostolic authority and antiquity.  Perhaps others who are more knowledgeable will have more to say about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>&#8230; For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.</i> And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (isa presbeia) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps I am the only one interested in this discussion at this time, but there are some interesting facets to it.</p>
<p>First, &#8220;Canon 28&#8243; is a bit of a misnomer as it is not canonical.  There isn&#8217;t a Canon 28 for Chalcedon 451.  But, this proposed canon perhaps could give an indication of Eastern thought on the Primacy of Rome and the hoped for primacy of Constantinople as Bp. Hilarion suggests, or could it?</p>
<p>The article of this post, &#8220;The Fathers Gave Rome the Primacy&#8221; and the apologetic summary I link to in Comment 2, look at the penumbra of communications around Chalcedon 451 which tell a different story.</p>
<p>Without rehearsing the additional references found in the article and the link above, one can summarize that, in fact, it was most common for ecclesiastics East and West to refer to the See of Rome in Petrine rather than imperial terms.  That is, no one seems inclined to address the papacy as the See of the First Imperial Capital, but rather as the See of Peter, the Apostolic See, etc.  This is born out not only in the  communications surrounding this Council but is the standard practice among Christians throughout history.</p>
<p>So, why would this proposed and rejected canon imply that Rome is the first See only because of its location in the imperial capital?  The motivation is obvious.  It is the only justification possible for elevating Constantinople which was neither ancient at the time, nor apostolic.  It would surely be convenient for Constantinople to have this new status because of its importance at the time.  But, this is not a theological justification for such a shift.</p>
<p>Now, it is true that the Second Ecumenical Council accorded Constantinople second place of honor behind Rome based not on theological or historical grounds, but on imperial ones.  But, I think we can all agree that there is a serious qualitative difference between honor and jurisdiction, for if not there would not be a divided Church today.  So, what can justify elevation for honor may not, and in this case cannot, justify an elevation of jurisdiction.</p>
<p>So, far from revealing, as Bishop Hilarion suggests (in his talk at the recent SVS Conference&#8211;see <a href="http://ancientfaith.com/specials/svs_jan2008/" rel="nofollow">http://ancientfaith.com/specials/svs_jan2008/</a> ), the mind of the Eastern Church on the significance of Rome, this rejected canon only reveals a failed justification for the See of Constantinople&#8217;s jurisdiction at the time.</p>
<p>The other question that comes to mind is Bishop Hilarion&#8217;s motivation in asserting that this canon reveals the East&#8217;s understanding of Roman Primacy.  It is not good form to assign motives to living persons, so I won&#8217;t.  But, it does seem that this is one of the essential leaps necessary to justify 3rd Rome which also lacks apostolic authority and antiquity.  Perhaps others who are more knowledgeable will have more to say about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. J.</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>While this article is by no means long for a scholar, it is pretty long for a blog discussion. 

For a &quot;Cliff&#039;s Notes&quot; version of the same material, I found this article helpful:

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a35.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While this article is by no means long for a scholar, it is pretty long for a blog discussion. </p>
<p>For a &#8220;Cliff&#8217;s Notes&#8221; version of the same material, I found this article helpful:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a35.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a35.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Two from the Byzantine Rambler &#171; Eirenikon</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/the-fathers-gave-rome-the-primacy/#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>Two from the Byzantine Rambler &#171; Eirenikon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] parish priest&#8217;s take (in the pages of a local newspaper) on &#8220;church leadership&#8221;. Westall&#8217;s article on Canon 28 of Chalcedon, which I posted yesterday, is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] parish priest&#8217;s take (in the pages of a local newspaper) on &#8220;church leadership&#8221;. Westall&#8217;s article on Canon 28 of Chalcedon, which I posted yesterday, is [...]</p>
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