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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;A Latin&#8217;s Lamentation over Gennadios Scholarios&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Towards Orthodox-Catholic Reconciliation</description>
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		<title>By: A Latin&#39;s Lament Over Gennadios Scholarios &#171; Papist Orthodoxy</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator>A Latin&#39;s Lament Over Gennadios Scholarios &#171; Papist Orthodoxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] A Latin&#039;s Lament Over Gennadios&#160;Scholarios  The following article was reproduced from the weblog, Eirenikon. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Latin&#39;s Lament Over Gennadios&nbsp;Scholarios  The following article was reproduced from the weblog, Eirenikon. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gil Garza</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-1807</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil Garza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 03:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My comments on http://www.gilgarzaonline.com/2009/09/fall-of-constantinople.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comments on <a href="http://www.gilgarzaonline.com/2009/09/fall-of-constantinople.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.gilgarzaonline.com/2009/09/fall-of-constantinople.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: A Latin&#8217;s Lament Over Gennadios Scholarios : PAPIST ORTHODOXY</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-1806</link>
		<dc:creator>A Latin&#8217;s Lament Over Gennadios Scholarios : PAPIST ORTHODOXY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The following article was reproduced from the weblog, Eirenikon. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The following article was reproduced from the weblog, Eirenikon. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: lm</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-1221</link>
		<dc:creator>lm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-1221</guid>
		<description>I came across this article several years ago and have enjoyed reading it many times.  This paragraph from Gennadios is most remarkable:

	But he [Aquinas] is a wise man, and is inferior to none of those who are perfect in wisdom among men. He wrote most especially as a commentator of Aristotelian philosophy, and of the Old and New Testaments. Most of the principal conclusions of both Sacred Theology and philosophy are seen in his books, almost all of which we have studied, both the few which were translated by others into the Greek language, and their Latin originals, some of which we ourselves have translated into our own tongue... In all the aforesaid areas this wise man is most excellent, as the best interpreter and synthesizer in those matters in which his church agrees with ours. In those things wherein that church and he differ from us-they are few in number-namely on the procession of the Holy Spirit and the divine essence and energies, 


Gennadios’ statement would make me think that a joint reading of Aquinas (in conjunction with the Eastern Fathers)  would be a most beneficial effort towards the unity which we seek.  Someday I believe that will happen with the establishment of Transfiguration College which I and others have been working on. Pray for its success!

http://transfigurationcollege.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came across this article several years ago and have enjoyed reading it many times.  This paragraph from Gennadios is most remarkable:</p>
<p>	But he [Aquinas] is a wise man, and is inferior to none of those who are perfect in wisdom among men. He wrote most especially as a commentator of Aristotelian philosophy, and of the Old and New Testaments. Most of the principal conclusions of both Sacred Theology and philosophy are seen in his books, almost all of which we have studied, both the few which were translated by others into the Greek language, and their Latin originals, some of which we ourselves have translated into our own tongue&#8230; In all the aforesaid areas this wise man is most excellent, as the best interpreter and synthesizer in those matters in which his church agrees with ours. In those things wherein that church and he differ from us-they are few in number-namely on the procession of the Holy Spirit and the divine essence and energies, </p>
<p>Gennadios’ statement would make me think that a joint reading of Aquinas (in conjunction with the Eastern Fathers)  would be a most beneficial effort towards the unity which we seek.  Someday I believe that will happen with the establishment of Transfiguration College which I and others have been working on. Pray for its success!</p>
<p><a href="http://transfigurationcollege.org/" rel="nofollow">http://transfigurationcollege.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-434</guid>
		<description>Thank you for this thoughtful and irenic post. I have only a few quibbles. 

&lt;i&gt;While I admire Aquinas, the soteriology implied by a doctrine of purgatory, the ecclesiology implied by the Gregorian papacy, and the theology implied by the double procession/created grace all form a whole Christian culture that is unrecognizable to Eastern Christians&lt;/i&gt;

I confess that I don&#039;t quite get this. Purgatory is Biblical, and some notion of it is certainly present in the Greek Fathers. All it means is purification after death. What is so weird about that? There&#039;s no need to accept picturesque popular depictions of fire and so forth. It&#039;s just a state and/or place of purification and purgation. As such, it makes perfect sense, both biblically and patristically (and in terms of human realities).

Re Gregorian papacy:  The current papacy does not operate like the Gregorian one, so this objection seems misplaced, IMHO.

I am certainly not competent to address your third point, but, again, I don&#039;t see how it poses insurmountable difficulties.

Eastern Catholics seem to have no trouble being both Eastern and Catholic. No one says you have to embrace baroque art or May processions if you become Catholic. Our tent is very big, and there&#039;s room beneath it for an Eastern sensibility. Just my two cents&#039; worth.

Thanks again for the lovely post.

Diane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this thoughtful and irenic post. I have only a few quibbles. </p>
<p><i>While I admire Aquinas, the soteriology implied by a doctrine of purgatory, the ecclesiology implied by the Gregorian papacy, and the theology implied by the double procession/created grace all form a whole Christian culture that is unrecognizable to Eastern Christians</i></p>
<p>I confess that I don&#8217;t quite get this. Purgatory is Biblical, and some notion of it is certainly present in the Greek Fathers. All it means is purification after death. What is so weird about that? There&#8217;s no need to accept picturesque popular depictions of fire and so forth. It&#8217;s just a state and/or place of purification and purgation. As such, it makes perfect sense, both biblically and patristically (and in terms of human realities).</p>
<p>Re Gregorian papacy:  The current papacy does not operate like the Gregorian one, so this objection seems misplaced, IMHO.</p>
<p>I am certainly not competent to address your third point, but, again, I don&#8217;t see how it poses insurmountable difficulties.</p>
<p>Eastern Catholics seem to have no trouble being both Eastern and Catholic. No one says you have to embrace baroque art or May processions if you become Catholic. Our tent is very big, and there&#8217;s room beneath it for an Eastern sensibility. Just my two cents&#8217; worth.</p>
<p>Thanks again for the lovely post.</p>
<p>Diane</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-431</guid>
		<description>Schemann&#039;s article on secularization in &quot;For the Life of the World&quot; addresses this problem of creeping dualism in Orthodox circles. Although Meyendorff certainly tended to see Platonism as more philosophically important, it&#039;s equally important to note that he did so largely within the context of his studies on Eastern ascetical/mystical theology. His point is well taken, since Platonism has played a disproportionately large role in that area. Aristotle certainly formed the foundation for Byzantine secular learning and influenced theological thinking in hermeneutics, canon law, aesthetics, catechism, etc.

While the Orthodox Church largely used Artistotelianism hermeneutically, it consciously and formally circumscribed syllogistic logic to the natural world (of which all created beings are a part) in the examinations of Michael Psellos and John Italikos in the 11th c. The patriarch guarded the fundamental superiority of scriptural revelation, as interpreted through ecumenical councils and fathers, versus natural philosophy. Peter Lombard&#039;s &quot;Sentences&quot; and Aquinas&#039; synthesis fundamentally open the divine nature and Christ&#039;s Incarnation to scrutiny that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable. Bonaventure&#039;s method comes much closer to an Orthodox way of unpacking Creation and history, it seems to me.

While I admire Aquinas, the soteriology implied by a doctrine of purgatory, the ecclesiology implied by the Gregorian papacy, and the theology implied by the double procession/created grace all form a whole Christian culture that is unrecognizable to Eastern Christians. I&#039;m encouraged that modern Roman Catholic theology seems willing to explore a procession through the Son and an energistic concept of grace. Rome seems largely to have abandoned purgatorial schemes de facto, if not de jure. Along with a conciliarist interpretation of the college of cardinals and magisterium, hope for union is not lacking. Unfortunately, many of the thorny issues remain as they were under Charlemagne or Gregory IX or at Florence-Ferrara. As Orthodox understand Aquinas and Bonaventure better, they still can&#039;t give up the fundamental conception of what it means to be saved or to be Church.

You&#039;re quite right that so much unites us, but a few bedrock issues divide us. Take, for example, the fundamentally symbolical hermeneutic behind so much late medieval art (Hortus Deliciarum is a case in point). As Henry Maguire points out in &quot;Icons of their Bodies,&quot; the Orthodox aesthetic really is historicizing, basically portraiture. Icons of angels remain confined classically to the two archangels in the Bible. Trent restored much of this theory, which became distorted by a psychologism in the Baroque and later. The notion of asceticism that once led laity and those in orders to a communion with God is almost totally absent from Roman Catholic practice, and its theoretical place is weak and confused. The confusion of monasticism with ordained ministry in the Seculars and the confusion of monasticism with worldly life seen in the Mendicants defies Eastern Christian understanding. The reduction of Roman Catholic spiritual life to the Eucharist, Eucharistic piety and Sunday worship likewise is unfathomable to Orthodox Christians.

In short, the basic life in Christ of a Roman Catholic barely resembles the norm for a church-going Orthodox Christian today, which itself is noticeably impoverished in all the same categories. The average Orthodox priest asks the laity to at least abstain from meat and confess and attend special services during Advent, Lent, Fast of the Apostles (June) and Transfiguration/Dormition. He asks them to pray and read scripture morning and night, attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday night, Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning. He asks them to pledge their time and talent to the Church, and he will deny Baptism, Marriage and burial to those he deems to not have met these minimums (not to mention scandalize the Church). While most Orthodox Christians fall well short of the norm, very few are unaware of the norm. It also forms the basis for monasticism and the life of ordained ministers.

Since Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church has made huge strides to form a coherent theology of Christian life. It also is doing a wonderful job in publishing and communicating a Christian anthropology through CCD and RC Initiation. We cheer its clear and unambiguous mission in the world for social justice and life. My prayer is that these reforms mark a turn toward a Christianity that local Orthodox Christians can recognize and eventually toward a coherence in Roman Catholic thought that the Orthodox Churches can affirm in communion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Schemann&#8217;s article on secularization in &#8220;For the Life of the World&#8221; addresses this problem of creeping dualism in Orthodox circles. Although Meyendorff certainly tended to see Platonism as more philosophically important, it&#8217;s equally important to note that he did so largely within the context of his studies on Eastern ascetical/mystical theology. His point is well taken, since Platonism has played a disproportionately large role in that area. Aristotle certainly formed the foundation for Byzantine secular learning and influenced theological thinking in hermeneutics, canon law, aesthetics, catechism, etc.</p>
<p>While the Orthodox Church largely used Artistotelianism hermeneutically, it consciously and formally circumscribed syllogistic logic to the natural world (of which all created beings are a part) in the examinations of Michael Psellos and John Italikos in the 11th c. The patriarch guarded the fundamental superiority of scriptural revelation, as interpreted through ecumenical councils and fathers, versus natural philosophy. Peter Lombard&#8217;s &#8220;Sentences&#8221; and Aquinas&#8217; synthesis fundamentally open the divine nature and Christ&#8217;s Incarnation to scrutiny that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable. Bonaventure&#8217;s method comes much closer to an Orthodox way of unpacking Creation and history, it seems to me.</p>
<p>While I admire Aquinas, the soteriology implied by a doctrine of purgatory, the ecclesiology implied by the Gregorian papacy, and the theology implied by the double procession/created grace all form a whole Christian culture that is unrecognizable to Eastern Christians. I&#8217;m encouraged that modern Roman Catholic theology seems willing to explore a procession through the Son and an energistic concept of grace. Rome seems largely to have abandoned purgatorial schemes de facto, if not de jure. Along with a conciliarist interpretation of the college of cardinals and magisterium, hope for union is not lacking. Unfortunately, many of the thorny issues remain as they were under Charlemagne or Gregory IX or at Florence-Ferrara. As Orthodox understand Aquinas and Bonaventure better, they still can&#8217;t give up the fundamental conception of what it means to be saved or to be Church.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re quite right that so much unites us, but a few bedrock issues divide us. Take, for example, the fundamentally symbolical hermeneutic behind so much late medieval art (Hortus Deliciarum is a case in point). As Henry Maguire points out in &#8220;Icons of their Bodies,&#8221; the Orthodox aesthetic really is historicizing, basically portraiture. Icons of angels remain confined classically to the two archangels in the Bible. Trent restored much of this theory, which became distorted by a psychologism in the Baroque and later. The notion of asceticism that once led laity and those in orders to a communion with God is almost totally absent from Roman Catholic practice, and its theoretical place is weak and confused. The confusion of monasticism with ordained ministry in the Seculars and the confusion of monasticism with worldly life seen in the Mendicants defies Eastern Christian understanding. The reduction of Roman Catholic spiritual life to the Eucharist, Eucharistic piety and Sunday worship likewise is unfathomable to Orthodox Christians.</p>
<p>In short, the basic life in Christ of a Roman Catholic barely resembles the norm for a church-going Orthodox Christian today, which itself is noticeably impoverished in all the same categories. The average Orthodox priest asks the laity to at least abstain from meat and confess and attend special services during Advent, Lent, Fast of the Apostles (June) and Transfiguration/Dormition. He asks them to pray and read scripture morning and night, attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday night, Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning. He asks them to pledge their time and talent to the Church, and he will deny Baptism, Marriage and burial to those he deems to not have met these minimums (not to mention scandalize the Church). While most Orthodox Christians fall well short of the norm, very few are unaware of the norm. It also forms the basis for monasticism and the life of ordained ministers.</p>
<p>Since Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church has made huge strides to form a coherent theology of Christian life. It also is doing a wonderful job in publishing and communicating a Christian anthropology through CCD and RC Initiation. We cheer its clear and unambiguous mission in the world for social justice and life. My prayer is that these reforms mark a turn toward a Christianity that local Orthodox Christians can recognize and eventually toward a coherence in Roman Catholic thought that the Orthodox Churches can affirm in communion.</p>
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		<title>By: asimplesinner</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>asimplesinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 19:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-382</guid>
		<description>I have opted to leave the &quot;possibly related posts&quot; option at &lt;a href=&quot;http://theblackcordelias.wordpress.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Black Cordelias&lt;/a&gt;with the hope that inasmuch as offensive or annoying links are posted under my stuff... well my posts get linked there as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have opted to leave the &#8220;possibly related posts&#8221; option at <a href="http://theblackcordelias.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">The Black Cordelias</a>with the hope that inasmuch as offensive or annoying links are posted under my stuff&#8230; well my posts get linked there as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Eirenikon Editor</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>Eirenikon Editor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 19:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-373</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the &quot;possibly related posts (automatically generated)&quot; thing is interesting. I don&#039;t mind it too much, since it brings more traffic here. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the &#8220;possibly related posts (automatically generated)&#8221; thing is interesting. I don&#8217;t mind it too much, since it brings more traffic here. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-372</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 06:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-372</guid>
		<description>I agree...fascinating. I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m all that keen on anti-ecumenical ecumenism--I&#039;m not very fond of anti-ecumenical &lt;i&gt;people&lt;/i&gt;, frankly--but I do see what Fr. Barbour is getting at. It&#039;s as C.S. Lewis once said: The people at the center of each tradition--those most fiercely loyal to their particular communion--have the most in common. The trouble is that it&#039;s darned hard to get the really anti-ecumenical folks to &lt;i&gt;see&lt;/i&gt; that. They&#039;re too busy anathematizing you and telling you how wrong and bad you are. However, if you &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; get them to stop ranting at you for a minute, they certainly would make the best allies in the culture wars.  :) So, yes, if that&#039;s what Fr. Barbour was getting at, I see his point.

But someone please make that link to &quot;an outsider&#039;s observation&quot; go away. I made the mistake of clicking on it, and it was just the same-old-same-old. Ugh! I realize those links are automatically generated, but is there any way one can banish them to the outer darkness where there is the weeping and the wailing and the gnashing of teeth? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree&#8230;fascinating. I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m all that keen on anti-ecumenical ecumenism&#8211;I&#8217;m not very fond of anti-ecumenical <i>people</i>, frankly&#8211;but I do see what Fr. Barbour is getting at. It&#8217;s as C.S. Lewis once said: The people at the center of each tradition&#8211;those most fiercely loyal to their particular communion&#8211;have the most in common. The trouble is that it&#8217;s darned hard to get the really anti-ecumenical folks to <i>see</i> that. They&#8217;re too busy anathematizing you and telling you how wrong and bad you are. However, if you <i>could</i> get them to stop ranting at you for a minute, they certainly would make the best allies in the culture wars.  :) So, yes, if that&#8217;s what Fr. Barbour was getting at, I see his point.</p>
<p>But someone please make that link to &#8220;an outsider&#8217;s observation&#8221; go away. I made the mistake of clicking on it, and it was just the same-old-same-old. Ugh! I realize those links are automatically generated, but is there any way one can banish them to the outer darkness where there is the weeping and the wailing and the gnashing of teeth? ;)</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/a-latins-lamentation-over-gennadios-scholarios/#comment-371</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 04:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/?p=76#comment-371</guid>
		<description>fascinating! Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fascinating! Thanks!</p>
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